East Coast wouldn't excess

[scotsman]

Just going to put this up to double check that what I did was correct/my complaint isn't a waste of time.

On Monday I travelled from Aberdour to Edinburgh. As I wasn't sure if I would be then continuing on to Berwick upon Tweed (returning on Wednesday), I purchased a single to Musselburgh - allowing me to excess the ticket in Edinburgh if required.

As I found I was then going to Berwick upon Tweed, I tried to excess my single to an Off Peak Return at Waverley Travel Centre. They refused, telling me I couldn't as no trains to Berwick stopped at Musselburgh. I explained that this was not true, and after double checking, she told me I couldn't excess it as I had already started my journey. The shift leader there also said this.

I took it up with the train guard (whom I approached before departure) - he agreed with them that I couldn't get an excess once I had started the journey. He offered to sell me a railcard discounted Musselburgh - Berwick single onboard instead.

As a result, I had to purchase the above ticket, plus an advance single Berwick - Edinburgh, then another single Edinburgh - Aberdour. I intend to claim this back from East Coast.

I'm pretty sure I was in the right for all of this?

 

[Robinson]

Pretty sure he was right in saying that no services call at both Musselburgh and Berwick-upon-Tweed, unless I'm missing something?

Or should an excess be allowed anyway?

 

[yorkie]

They refused, telling me I couldn't as no trains to Berwick stopped at Musselburgh.

The clerk was wrong, why would the train need to call? A certain rude clerk at King's Cross tried to use that argument, but a forum member complained to EC and the complaint was upheld and the clerk was given appropriate advice.

A variation in the Rights and Restrictions applicable to a Fare which has the effect of converting that Fare into another Fare

So a ticket to Musselbrough would become a ticket to Berwick. That's one ticket, not a combination of tickets!

However combination of a ticket to Musselburgh plus a Musselburgh - Berwick would require the train to call. So instead of issuing a correct excess to make the ticket valid, a ticket that was sold that was not valid for the journey being made.:roll:

Sadly this is very common. Many ticket clerks do not issue excess fares correctly. EC are generally one of the better TOCs. The worst is LO; do any of their staff know how to issue an excess? You're lucky if they know what an excess is!

 

[SickyNicky]

after double checking, she told me I couldn't excess it as I had already started my journey. The shift leader there also said this.

This is also the official policy of Virgin Trains, according to their customer services. If you've used any part of the ticket, you can't have an overdistance excess.

I don't necessarily agree, but I can't point to any public document that clarifies this.

 

[scotsman]

The clerk was wrong, why would the train need to call? A certain rude clerk at King's Cross tried to use that argument, but a forum member complained to EC and the complaint was upheld and the clerk was given appropriate advice.



So a ticket to Musselbrough would become a ticket to Berwick. That's one ticket, not a combination of tickets!

However a ticket to Musselbrough plus a Musselbrough - Berwick would require the train to call. So instead of issuing a correct excess to make the ticket valid, a ticket that was sold that was not valid for the journey being made.

Sadly this is very common. Many ticket clerks do not issue excess fares correctly.

I'll explain. The Guard didn't think I was right, but was willing to sell me the (technically) invalid ticket for some reason.

 

[yorkie]

I'll explain. The Guard didn't think I was right, but was willing to sell me the (technically) invalid ticket for some reason.

Yes, that is odd, but I wouldn't mention that in any correspondence, as the guard was doing you a favour by waiving the requirement for the train to call. But he should still have issued the excess, in my opinion.

It's definitely worth complaining about the clerk though and EC are highly likely to issue appropriate advice to the clerk as they have done before.

 

[FGWman]

Yes, that is odd, but I wouldn't mention that in any correspondence, as the guard was doing you a favour by waiving the requirement for the train to call. But he should still have issued the excess, in my opinion.

The guard was correct. Over distance excesses can only be bought on train if there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding

Also the manual says that singles can only be excessed to returns if done before travel.

 

[BrianTheLion]

Just going to put this up to double check that what I did was correct/my complaint isn't a waste of time.

On Monday I travelled from Aberdour to Edinburgh. As I wasn't sure if I would be then continuing on to Berwick upon Tweed (returning on Wednesday), I purchased a single to Musselburgh - allowing me to excess the ticket in Edinburgh if required.

As I found I was then going to Berwick upon Tweed, I tried to excess my single to an Off Peak Return at Waverley Travel Centre. They refused, telling me I couldn't as no trains to Berwick stopped at Musselburgh. I explained that this was not true, and after double checking, she told me I couldn't excess it as I had already started my journey. The shift leader there also said this.

I took it up with the train guard (whom I approached before departure) - he agreed with them that I couldn't get an excess once I had started the journey. He offered to sell me a railcard discounted Musselburgh - Berwick single onboard instead.

As a result, I had to purchase the above ticket, plus an advance single Berwick - Edinburgh, then another single Edinburgh - Aberdour. I intend to claim this back from East Coast.

I'm pretty sure I was in the right for all of this?

I'm confused at how East Coast would have to refund you? They don't operate trains via Musselburgh, nor is there any direct trains between Musselburgh and Berwick?

Would excessing in Edinburgh not have applied if you originally bought an Aberdour to Edinburgh ticket?

 

[bb21]

I'm confused at how East Coast would have to refund you? They don't operate trains via Musselburgh, nor is there any direct trains between Musselburgh and Berwick?

Because he was sold the wrong ticket by an East Coast staff.

Would excessing in Edinburgh not have applied if you originally bought an Aberdour to Edinburgh ticket?

You cannot excess a ticket once it has been completely used, unless you have not had any opportunity beforehand.

 

[Lampshade]

If you've used any part of the ticket, you can't have an overdistance excess.

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[tony_mac]

I think part of the problem is in excessing both from a single to a return, and overdistance at the same time - and just before the ticket had been entirely used.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69170

It is permitted to charge an excess fare to upgrade a Single ticket into a Return (but not into London Day Travelcards), provided the excess fare is paid before departure....

As the decision to excess was made after departure, it seems as if it was correct not to do the excess to a return.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You may do an over-distance (over-riding) excess before travel or, when there was no facility to get an excess, or buy a ticket (or tickets) for your entire journey, during the journey.

Where it was possible to get a ticket (or tickets), or an excess, for your entire journey before travel, an over-distance (over-riding) excess should not be offered, instead a new ticket, from the last station the original ticket was valid, to the destination should be sold.

The fact that the train calls or does not call is irrelevant for an excess fare, however, there are times it cannot be done and this sounds like one of those times.

 

[scotsman]

The guard was correct. Over distance excesses can only be bought on train if there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding

Also the manual says that singles can only be excessed to returns if done before travel.

Only because the Travel Centre staff refused to do it, hence why I took it up with him - I approached him in good time before departure.

 

[yorkie]

The guard was correct.

No he wasn't, at least not for the reasons given.

Over distance excesses can only be bought on train if there was no opportunity to purchase before boarding

Not actually true. If you read the EC Manual it clearly states that if there was no opportunity to buy before travel it would be an over distance excess or new ticket (whichever is cheapest) to the appropriate fare, but if there was opportunity to buy before travel then the same still applies but it would be the full fare. But an excess is still possible!

Also the manual says that singles can only be excessed to returns if done before travel.

To be honest I have ignored the issue of the ticket being a single because the reasons given for refusal were different, and I have concentrated on the reasons for refusal. It is true that once a Single ticket has been wholly used it cannot be excessed into a return, but it is not clear if this applies if the journey is still underway. However I understand that, in general the only reason such an excess should be given is if the customer purchases a Single in error and meant to purchase a Return.

I'm confused at how East Coast would have to refund you?

For failing to give the correct excess because they falsely claimed the train needs to call at Musselburgh.

They don't operate trains via Musselburgh

Yes they do, it's on the ECML!

nor is there any direct trains between Musselburgh and Berwick?

There are no direct trains between those stations but can you please explain the relevance of that fact as it has me baffled.

Would excessing in Edinburgh not have applied if you originally bought an Aberdour to Edinburgh ticket?

If he had bought a ticket to Edinburgh then it could not be excessed once he reaches Edinburgh as it is his final destination.

As he bought a Single then that complicates the case, but certainly the reasons for refusal of the excess were wrong.

 

[SickyNicky]

Absolutely ridiculous.

Isn't it. But the manager at Euston was clear on the matter and so were customer services when I emailed in afterwards.

If you have an excess refused, sometimes it's worth just trying another ticket office, if you can.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Absolutely ridiculous.

Not really, imagine the scene, a passenger holds a single for a journey of one stop with the intention of travelling ten stops and not paying the full fare unless caught out, but his ticket is checked after four closely timed stops. If the passenger immediately asked for an excess, would the guard issue a full single fare, or penalty fare as appropriate, or issue the excess? You end up in a farcical situation of few people having the correct ticket just in case no ticket checks are done.

There are very few occasions where an excess should be needed on board the train if facilities were available before travel, so the rules show that and allow the railway to better deal with those who attempt to pay less than the correct fare for their journey.

 

[FGWman]

No he wasn't, at least not for the reasons given.

Not actually true. If you read the EC Manual it clearly states that if there was no opportunity to buy before travel it would be an over distance excess or new ticket (whichever is cheapest) to the appropriate fare, but if there was opportunity to buy before travel then the same still applies but it would be the full fare. But an excess is still possible!

Interesting. It seems EC has a different way of dealing with over distance excesses. In the manual it does say once the journey has started then if you are travelling over distance then a single fare is payable from where you ticket ends to where you are travelling.

I know this rule did change fairly recently. Maybe EC have not updated their manuals yet. Is the EC manual available online ?

Also I see you say EC refused to issue the excess because the train did not stop at Musselburgh. I agree this would be wrong. However if you read on the next line from the OP EC appear to concede this point and the reason the excess was not issued was because the journey had already started.


To excess a single to a return this needs to be done before the journey starts so I would say EC are correct.

 

[scotsman]

Not really, imagine the scene, a passenger holds a single for a journey of one stop with the intention of travelling ten stops and not paying the full fare unless caught out, but his ticket is checked after four closely timed stops. If the passenger immediately asked for an excess, would the guard issue a full single fare, or penalty fare as appropriate, or issue the excess? You end up in a farcical situation of few people having the correct ticket just in case no ticket checks are done.

There are very few occasions where an excess should be needed on board the train if facilities were available before travel, so the rules show that and allow the railway to better deal with those who attempt to pay less than the correct fare for their journey.

Agreed, but there is an implication I was trying to do this...

 

[Be3G]

You may do an over-distance (over-riding) excess before travel or, when there was no facility to get an excess, or buy a ticket (or tickets) for your entire journey, during the journey.

Just to be clear, how does this apply in the case of a station where the only way of purchasing a ticket is a TVM? In that case, there is technically the facility to buy a ticket for the entire journey (by purchasing one from that station to the ultimate destination, therefore paying again for the part covered by the original ticket), but there's no facility to buy an excess.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to be clear, how does this apply in the case of a station where the only way of purchasing a ticket is a TVM? In that case, there is technically the facility to buy a ticket for the entire journey (by purchasing one from that station to the ultimate destination, therefore paying again for the part covered by the original ticket), but there's no facility to buy an excess.

If you turn up at the station with a ticket already and there is only a TVM, the facility to get an excess is not there, so you can get the excess on the train. This would be different to buying the ticket immediately before departure from that TVM.

 

[Be3G]

Right, thanks – it was the turning-up-with-a-pre-purchased-ticket scenario that I was thinking in terms of.