Disputing a ticket

[swale0]

Good afternoon all,

I'll keep it relatively brief:

I was travelling from Norbiton to Waterloo, tried to use my oyster card, no money. Tried to use my contactless credit card, didn't work, but the guard came over and opened the gates for me anyway. I assumed an error: re the contactless card.

In any case, get to the other end and I am told I haven't got a valid ticket, I say I will buy one, but I'm told I would receive a penalty fare instead.

I'm annoyed (more that he wouldn't let me just buy a ticket) but he's technically correct so what can I do.

I posted my card details on the form back to them and thought nothing more of it. Then I received demands for a payment of £55 stating I hadn't yet paid. I wrote to SW Trains explaining that I'd already sent them my payment information. I sent that email on 31/03 and am still to receive a reply.

So I got another letter from IRCAS now demanding £90. I appealed that one and it was rejected.

I was going to pay, seeing as I had no other choice, but I looked and realised it says Waddon was the destination station.

I have appealed again, saying I have no idea where Waddon even is. Any chance it can be written off on a technicality? I don't want to pay them anything when all the correspondence I've had from them despite repeated attempts is demands for money.

Thanks for any assistance you can offer.

 

[bb21]

Do you have any proof that you sent them the card details?

Can you pay with contactless at Norbiton? I am not aware of that.

 

[swale0]

In the first instance?

Nothing at all. Obviously now I think about it I should have got proof of postage, hindsight being 20/20 and all that.

 

[bb21]

What time was it that you travelled, on a weekday?

Is there any reason why you didn't use the ticket office, or use the ticket machine to top up your Oyster card when you realised that you had no money on it?

 

[swale0]

It was around 10 to 6 on a weekday (Friday I think). No reason other than time and when I tried to use my contactless card (beyond occasionally using the bus, I drive everywhere, and the card is perfectly fine on the bus) the guard let me through anyway.

At that point I didn't assume that it hadn't worked (foolishly, again in hindsight).

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the penalty is applicable for the event that occurred. I'm wondering if the fact they've noted it down as Waddon could potentially work in my favour. I mean, if they're going to look back at it (CCTV, hypothetically), they'd have a very tough time proving I was there.

 

[maniacmartin]

Did the gateline attendant say anything when they opened the gates for you, e.g. that you can pay at the other end?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The fact that you boarded the train at Norbiton without a ticket might be construed as an intention to travel without paying - knowing that you had no money on your Oyster.

You said you posted your card details on a form. Where did you get the form from and what details did it ask for?

Is this normal practice by SWT to request card details to debit an owed sum?

The first demand (for £55) - who was this from - IRCAS? Who is this firm?

The fact that the destination station shows Waddon could just be an administration error or gross incompetance. If the company are unable to provide correct details, then you "may" have a defence. I'm sure the more knowledgeable members on here can advise.

It sounds like that the amount you owe has been passed to a debt collection agency who have added admin and late payment fees.

 

[swale0]

Did the gateline attendant say anything when they opened the gates for you, e.g. that you can pay at the other end?

Nothing at all.

The copy of the penalty notice has a section at the bottom to fill out card details, which I returned to the address on it (what that was I have zero recollection of).

I have no idea if that's normal practice, this is the first one of these I've had. The first demand was from IRCAS yes. £20 owed to SWT and now £70 in admin fees to IRCAS.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can you pay with contactless at Norbiton? I am not aware of that.

SWT are rolling out contactless payment at ticket office windows, but only in the same way it works at any other 'till'. I'm not aware of contactless payment at barriers or TVMs yet.

 

[MikeWh]

Can you pay with contactless at Norbiton? I am not aware of that.

SWT are rolling out contactless payment at ticket office windows, but only in the same way it works at any other 'till'. I'm not aware of contactless payment at barriers or TVMs yet.

You can if you are participating in the TfL contactless pilot and are carrying the membership card to show to any RPIs etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

You can if you are participating in the TfL contactless pilot and are carrying the membership card to show to any RPIs etc.

Ah right, I didn't realise that trial was across the whole Oyster area, I had an idea it was LU only, but I suppose that would be daft really...

 

[swale0]

So I appealed, with a very short line saying I've never been to Waddon, what's going on?

I then received an email saying "Thank you for your advice concerning the above referenced Penalty Fare/Unpaid Fare Notice and your kind notification of the use of 'false' details in this instance."

It then asks me to provide confirmation of my date of birth, a photocopy of of something signed, like a driving license, then asks me to describe my physical appearance...

Using this information they say they'll update their database accordingly.

Is this normal procedure?

 

[reb0118]

Is this normal procedure?

Pretty much so. If you were not at Waddon at the time concerned then they will be able to check CCTV to prove this, hence they require your description so they know who to look for. Simples.

They need the other details to prove that it is you they are dealing with and not some random person who is using your details.

***Pedant alert: Licence not License***Pedant alert over***

 

[Stigy]

I'm assuming Waddon is on the correspondence from IRCAS and not the notice itself? I'm assuming so as Waddon isn't an SWT station so the staff couldn't really make that mistake. That being the case, as long as the notice says London Waterloo as the destination station, that's all that matters. You can't change what's on the notice, but it's okay to amend what's on IRCAS' letters etc. This is no defence on court assuming the PFN was correct.

 

[swale0]

I responded to the email with those details they requested.

Honestly, I don't recall what was on the notice, I didn't photocopy it before I sent it back or anything like that, however I'd guess it was Waterloo.

I'm completely cooperating with them (have done since day 1 despite the ridiculous length this has gone). Wait and see what they say to this response?

I've already admitted in the prior correspondence what occurred, so this seems like it's just dragging it out now. I'm a bit conscious of this going further as I'm leaving the country for 6 months in a couple of weeks and would rather this not drag on while I'm away.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm a bit conscious of this going further as I'm leaving the country for 6 months in a couple of weeks and would rather this not drag on while I'm away.

In that case, if you don't hear from them before you leave, you may wish to send them a letter/email telling them that you'll be away for X period of time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

In that case, if you don't hear from them before you leave, you may wish to send them a letter/email telling them that you'll be away for X period of time.

I wouldn't bother.

I advise that you stick to the one fact which is at the centre of the matter. You are being investigated for travel without payment from Waddon to Waterloo on whatever date. You did not make that journey.

None of the other issues have any bearing on this one simple fact. They complicate things for no benefit to anyone. A journey from Norbiton on that same date which may still be unpaid doesn't bear upon the matter in the least, and really, it shouldn't have been mentioned in your correspondence.