Dispute - I have a valid ticket!

[Bluebirdnick]

Hi all
I have a dispute with IRCAS over a journey I made in July and would appreciate some advice on just how bullish I can be.

The facts:

I had a monthly pass but had left my wallet (with my pass in it) at home. I had to get to work as I had a meeting, but no method of paying for a replacement ticket. I see the station staff every day so they know me. We decided the best way to deal with this was for them to issue me with a penalty fare, and that I would show them my season ticket the following day.
I thought that would be it, but about a month later I got a letter asking for £28.60 for the fare, plus a £30 penalty. I received it on the day we moved house. I was obviously irritated, but decided that I’d just pay it as I didn’t have time to dispute it as we were moving house (and in any case the letter said that my 21 days for disputing the penalty fare had expired).
I therefore logged on to the IRCAS system, put the details in, and paid the penalty. It transpires that this did not include the £30 fee, but I did not select the payment amount, I just followed the online instructions to settle the debt.

I then went on holiday for a few weeks. Due to the fact that mail takes a while to be redirected from my old address, and because I was on holiday, I have come back to find some old post, including letters asking for £60 in admin fees for this fare. I have set these facts out to IRCAS and I assumed that they would drop it, given the following facts:

1) I had a valid ticket (which I still have)
2) I thought I had dealt with the penalty fare by doing what was asked of me by the station staff
3) I thought I had settled the bill anyway, because I’d made a payment using their own systems.

I have since received a snotty email from them, saying that their notice clearly states that I had 21 days to appeal. The tone of the email has really annoyed me. As a reminder, I had a valid ticket, I showed this to station staff the following day, I paid the penalty fare anyway, and they are still after me!

My question is, does anybody know what would happen if I refused to pay the £60 and went to court? Would I have a leg to stand on? I still have my valid ticket. The tone of their response has really got my back up, I seriously dislike these parasitical organisations. The delays in the communications that have led to the admin fees being incurred are entirely outside of my control.

Any advice welcome.

Thanks

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks for such a detailled timeline to your story. The bad news is that it helps me to answer your question with the answer you were hoping not to hear: if you allowed the Company to prosecute you for their claim against you, it would have additional costs added and I am confident that they would succeed. Sorry about that bad news.

My reasoning is: owning the valid ticket is not adequate to allow your travel, it must actually be produced on demand (i.e at the time it is demanded) and that is what you were unable to do.

I expect that the 'penalty' plus the fare due would be the correct way to deal with your request from the staff (though without further details I cannot comment on the amounts of £28:60 and £30:00 but unless there is an error in the calculation I will pass over that).

As the payment of £28:60 plus £30:00 was requested in writing and you responded by making a payment but for less than the amount requested, then you had not discharged the liability, and the amount of the liability increased as had been indicated.

I will guess that if you did allow it to go to Court then those would be the facts presented to you and the Company would succeed in their claim. Probably best to save your "bullish" response for another occasion!

 

[cuccir]

IRCAS are not a very helpful or easy to deal with organisation. The cases that people have brought up on here which mention them can be seen in this Google search.

First of all - can you clarify the following:

We decided the best way to deal with this was for them to issue me with a penalty fare, and that I would show them my season ticket the following day.

Did you pay this initial penalty fare in full, within 21 days? Where you stand legally on this would depend, in my view, on whether or not you did this.

With regards to the IRCAS issue - we're starting to move out of railway legislation and into debt-related legislation. My understanding is that while administrative charges can be added for late payment, these must be proportional and related to costs incurred ie they can't be punitive. It seems here that IRCAS are adding punitive charges.

Of course, paying the money always makes the problem go away, but it doesn't seem either a fair or reasonable outcome in this instance. However if you did not pay the full penalty fare in the first 21 days, then it may be the lowest risk option open to you.

 

[Harlesden]

Confused about why you thought that showing them your ticket the following day has any bearing on the matter or why you apparently believe that being a familiar face at your local station makes any difference.
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you thought that showing them your ticket the following day would result in the cancellation of the PF you had been issued.
That would have amounted to preferential treatment as the issue of the PF was totally legitimate in the absence of a valid ticket and there would be no reason to think it might be cancelled.
You apparently didn't do anything towards paying the PF until you got a letter notifying you that payment was overdue and an additional fee had accrued.
Having checked the IRCAS website myself, there does not seem to be any facility to pay an overdue PF or UFN that has already attracted additional fees, The site permits payment, as far as I know, only by people paying their PF or UFN within the timescale permitted.
You should perhaps have called the telephone number given in the letters you received as a matter of urgency to prevent further action rather than writing to them.
Quite why you should expect IRCAS to "drop it" is rather baffling.
As you were the one without a valid ticket - and the one who failed to pay the PF within the allocated time to do so - your best course of action would seem to be to comply with whatever they are currently suggesting.

 

[jon0844]

Did you ask for the PF before you travelled? I can see why you might in order to get around the fact you had no money on you, although it would be a little odd to get the PF before you'd even set foot within a controlled zone.

Assuming staff advised that as a way to solve the problem, I guess you need to either write to IRCAS - or accept that it would be easier to pay everything owed (including the extra fees on top) and then write to the TOC to explain the whole situation and how you were advised by their staff that it was a solution to your problem.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

Thanks both for the replies. I have read a bit more on this forum and I think I was actually issued with an unpaid fares notice, and not a penalty fare notice. I am not sure if this makes a difference.

In response to cuccir's question: No, I did not pay it within the 21 days. When I took the notice, the staff at the station just told me to show them the valid ticket the following day. I thought that would deal with the matter, it was never our intention that I should pay the fare. I have no experience with this sort of thing because I always have a valid ticket, and so when I was told that all I had to do was present my season ticket the following day, I assumed that was correct. I was therefore surprised to receive the letter a month or so later.

Harlesden: I believed that showing the valid ticket at the station the following day would make a difference because that is what I was told by the station staff who helped me that day by issuing the notice. You are right: I did think that would cancel the notice that had been issued.

I did call the IRCAS number when I got the letter, but it is just a recorded helpline. I couldn't speak to anybody and wanted it sorted immediately (I assumed that I would have to go to the station to discuss the matter and that would have meant a long journey from my new address), so I just paid the bill online, whilst the removal men were loading the vans. It was a far from ideal situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you ask for the PF before you travelled? I can see why you might in order to get around the fact you had no money on you, although it would be a little odd to get the PF before you'd even set foot within a controlled zone.

Assuming staff advised that as a way to solve the problem, I guess you need to either write to IRCAS - or accept that it would be easier to pay everything owed (including the extra fees on top) and then write to the TOC to explain the whole situation and how you were advised by their staff that it was a solution to your problem.

Yes, I did it before entering through the barriers. I didn't ask for it - I asked the staff help me get to London, and that was what they proposed. They said the best way to do it would be to get a "penalty fare" return ticket so I didn't have to worry about the return journey. They were trying to be helpful - they knew me as a regular commuter and that I was not trying it on. [I am remembering it as a penalty fare because I'm not up to speed on these things - having read this site a bit more I suspect it was an unpaid fare notice].

 

[jon0844]

I think at this point, you need to write to the train company and explain everything in full.

But be prepared to pay the outstanding debt to stop things getting worse (and avoid any potential court action) until you can get it sorted.

Good luck!

 

[Bluebirdnick]

I think at this point, you need to write to the train company and explain everything in full.

But be prepared to pay the outstanding debt to stop things getting worse (and avoid any potential court action) until you can get it sorted.

Good luck!

OK, thanks for the advice.

 

[bb21]

Thanks both for the replies. I have read a bit more on this forum and I think I was actually issued with an unpaid fares notice, and not a penalty fare notice. I am not sure if this makes a difference.

You should have received some paperwork on the day. What does it say at the top? It would help if we know exactly what you were issued with.

In response to cuccir's question: No, I did not pay it within the 21 days. When I took the notice, the staff at the station just told me to show them the valid ticket the following day. I thought that would deal with the matter, it was never our intention that I should pay the fare. I have no experience with this sort of thing because I always have a valid ticket, and so when I was told that all I had to do was present my season ticket the following day, I assumed that was correct. I was therefore surprised to receive the letter a month or so later.

Did you confirm with station staff the following day that the UPFN/PF was indeed cancelled? Merely showing them your season ticket makes no difference as by that time the UPFN/PF would have probably already been submitted.

Harlesden: I believed that showing the valid ticket at the station the following day would make a difference because that is what I was told by the station staff who helped me that day by issuing the notice. You are right: I did think that would cancel the notice that had been issued.

There are provisions which permit valid season ticket holders who forget their tickets at home to present them on a later date so that a refund could be issued for the additional ticket purchased. Some train companies allow UPFNs to be issued on these occasions to be cancelled upon presentation of the valid season ticket.

Yes, I did it before entering through the barriers. I didn't ask for it - I asked the staff help me get to London, and that was what they proposed. They said the best way to do it would be to get a "penalty fare" return ticket so I didn't have to worry about the return journey. They were trying to be helpful - they knew me as a regular commuter and that I was not trying it on. [I am remembering it as a penalty fare because I'm not up to speed on these things - having read this site a bit more I suspect it was an unpaid fare notice].

It sounds to me like there was some sort of misunderstanding, not helped by the unfortunate situation you find yourself in where you are not receiving posts on a daily basis.

I think the way things are now, you might be better off just paying whatever need paying now and then write to the train company explaining the whole situation.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

I've checked - it was a penalty fare notice after all, and not an unpaid fare notice. This seems odd. I have read the advice on this thread and it seems they can only issue me with a penalty fare if I've got on to a train. I did not do this - we discussed the best way forward before the barrier and did it there.

The amount is also confusing. The amount of the penalty fare is less than 2x a single, and the station staff specifically told me that it would mean I could make the return journey in the evening. From what I can tell, a penalty fare notice will never do this, whilst an unpaid fare notice can do. What a mess.

 

[bb21]

The amount is also confusing. The amount of the penalty fare is less than 2x a single, and the station staff specifically told me that it would mean I could make the return journey in the evening. From what I can tell, a penalty fare notice will never do this, whilst an unpaid fare notice can do. What a mess.

What's your journey and what amount were you issued with?

Sounds like a right mess.

 

[Greenback]

It does sound like a right mess, unfortunately. This may be as a result of well meaning staff trying to help a passenger but not realising the implications of what they were doing? I'd like to know more about the actual conversation, though.

Anyway, I think the priority here should be to dispose of the liability in order to prevent both the chance of further charges accruing and the likelihood of court action increasing.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

What's your journey and what amount were you issued with?

Sounds like a right mess.

Chelmsford to London. I was told it would let me travel home too - they really were trying to help me out. My notice was for £28.60, which makes no sense whatsoever, unless Greater Anglia have reduced their single fares in the last month or so. A single fare is £14.20, so a penalty fare should be £28.40. A return is £25.70.

IRCAS have offered to reduce the admin by £30. I'll take that, and take it up with the train company. I also have some sympathy for IRCAS now as well - clearly this entire thing is a mess and the description I gave them of the events will not match to the fact that I was issued with a penalty fare notice.

 

[Realfish]

Does the NRCoC not give a suggestion about the way this should have been dealt with (albeit at the discretion of the TOC)?

35. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection
If you do not show a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket, when asked by staff or agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued.
(a) the Season Ticket;
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices, the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not exceeding £10). No more than two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets purchased in that time.

 

[Greenback]

Does the NRCoC not give a suggestion about the way this should have been dealt with (albeit at the discretion of the TOC)?

35. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection
If you do not show a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket, when asked by staff or agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued.
(a) the Season Ticket;
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices, the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not exceeding £10). No more than two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets purchased in that time.

Although the OP didn't actually join the train, it may be that the gateline were trying to do this by issuing a PF 'in advance' as it were, as the Op had realised they did not have their ticket with them, nor the means to pay for one that day.

It seesm to have gone wrong the next day. For whatever reason, the OP did not show the ticket and PF at the season ticket issuing office, which led to a demand for payment. To make matters worse, we have to add the relocation, and the additional charges, which all combined to complicate matters for the OP.

I expect we will never know with any certainty what the actual conversation was between the parties at the gateline, or how it was thought that showing the ticket at the gateline the next day would resolve the PF. My guess it was a simple misunderstanding.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I stand for correction, but I believe the normal procedure in such a case is that the passenger needs to appeal the PF in the usual manner within 21 days, enclosing a copy of their season, at which point it should be cancelled (no more than twice in a rolling 12 month period).

If the OP failed to do so, that would explain why IRCAS are now pursuing payment...

 

[bb21]

It seesm to have gone wrong the next day. For whatever reason, the OP did not show the ticket and PF at the season ticket issuing office, which led to a demand for payment.

I am leaning towards this opinion, since there is no confirmation either way from the OP in response to my question below as asked in Post 9.

Did you confirm with station staff the following day that the UPFN/PF was indeed cancelled? Merely showing them your season ticket makes no difference as by that time the UPFN/PF would have probably already been submitted.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

I am leaning towards this opinion, since there is no confirmation either way from the OP in response to my question below as asked in Post 9.

Apologies for the delay - I appreciate the help you've given me on this thread, I just hadn't checked it since yesterday afternoon!

I am convinced it was just a misunderstanding. I know nothing about these sorts of things as I've had a season ticket for years and almost never forgotten it.

I'm afraid I cannot recollect the conversation entirely, but essentially I approached them as I got to the station to say that I'd left my wallet at home but needed to get to work urgently, and was there any procedure in place for this or anything they could do to help me. I told them that I had a season ticket (they recognised me anyway) and I said I would be able to pay that evening as a colleague would lend me the cash. I had in mind some sort of temporary unpaid ticket or pass that was paid for later, or even a note to explain to any inspector that I was known to hold a season ticket for the journey. Naive I guess, but as I say, it was not a situation I was familiar with. They said that they could issue me with a [penalty fare notice], and this would allow me to travel and would also allow me to get home. The implication was that if they just let me on the train with nothing, I might have trouble on the return journey. Again, I emphasise that I was in a situation I was unfamiliar with, and dealing with people who were trying to help me - they were in no way being unpleasant about it. I used to say hi to them every morning and speak to them frequently about disruptions, replacement services etc. They told me that I had to show my season ticket the following day and the [penalty fare] would be forgotten. I am obviously paraphrasing, but I am sure I was not given any specific instructions on where to show it. It was all a bit of a rush as my train was due and he was trying to get it printed as soon as possible so I wouldn't miss it. This was not a confrontational situation at all, just an employee doing everything he could to get me to work on time and back again. I appreciated his help. As I said, it was never anticipated by either of us that I would actually pay anything. The same man helped me previously when I had a credit card on me but no wallet. He told me to buy a ticket and claim back the cost against my season ticket (which I did). Therefore I didn't view the [penalty fare notice] as anything significant - just a slip of paper to help me get to and from work, which would be forgotten when I showed him my ticket the following day.

The following day, I showed him my season ticket. I've no idea what we said - I probably made some comment like "got it today, see!"). In hindsight, it was probably naive to think that he would then do something to cancel the penalty fare based on that, but as I have said, I have no experience with these things and so did not really understand the process - I thought it was something dealt with by the station or the employee. I have seen people given penalty fares on trains before and they do all sorts of checks of the details the passenger gives by calling up the office or whatever. In my instance he just asked for name and address - no checks. I gave him the proper information. From reading the comments in this thread it seems that what I should have done is take the season ticket to the window along with the penalty fare the following day, show it to the staff in the ticket office there, and have them do something to formally cancel it (and get a receipt or proof of cancellation I guess).

It's a mixture of naivety on my part; lack of real explanation of the process on the part of the station staff; arguably the issue of the wrong notice anyway (from what I can tell an unpaid fare notice would seem to be more appropriate); and sheer bad luck of the timing as I was moving house and went on holiday so missed a lot of the letters. What it does mean is that whilst IRCAS have forgiven £30 of the admin fees, it has cost me £58.60 to make a journey I had already paid for.

EDIT: I should add that the person I spoke to, and who helped me/issued me with a ticket, was an employee who stands by the (open) gate for people with wheelchairs or luggage. He's there every morning. He was not in the ticket office.

 

[jon0844]

I think it's now in the hands of GA's customer service team to see what can be done. At worst, you're out of pocket by £58.40 (instead of £10, the admin fee you'd have been expected to pay).

Question is; how much effort will you put in for £48.40? I'd say write in and explain, giving as much information as possible from the outset, and see what happens but be prepared to write it off if it looks like you're going to struggle.

 

[bb21]

That sounds like a very unfortunate set of circumstances, and I can only offer you my sympathy.

As you correctly noted, what you did was not sufficient, but it is very easy for someone like me to say this.

The only thing I can suggest is that if you write to the train company enclosing a full account of what happened and evidence of payment of the Penalty Fare Notice and your season ticket, they might be willing to offer a refund as a goodwill gesture. This may only comprise of the fare and not the admin fee, but you never know.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

I think it's now in the hands of GA's customer service team to see what can be done. At worst, you're out of pocket by £58.40 (instead of £10, the admin fee you'd have been expected to pay).

Question is; how much effort will you put in for £48.40? I'd say write in and explain, giving as much information as possible from the outset, and see what happens but be prepared to write it off if it looks like you're going to struggle.

It's a fair point. I probably won't pursue it beyond a letter to GA. The only reason I decided to do something about it yesterday was because the condescending tone of the email from IRCAS really annoyed me, and it wanted to make me dig my heels in purely because it was so irritating to be told I was a naughty boy when, as I set out in my opening post, I really did believe I was in the right.

As you say, it is not a massive sum and I had decided to just pay it on the day we were moving, but I genuinely didn't notice that the £30 admin fee was not added to the bill when I settled it with IRCAS' online thingy.

That was IRCAS' error. It is a simple fact. I logged on yesterday to pay up the remaining £30 I owed them. The process I went through and the information I entered to do this was exactly the same as the process I went through when I paid the actual penalty fare a month or so ago.

After they identify you, the website shows you a simple computation of the fees owing. There are two boxes for amounts owing: one showing the penalty fare, the other showing admin fees. Obviously, these are uneditable. There is also a box for amounts paid, and a final box showing the outstanding amount. This time, the outstanding amount was £30. Therefore when I paid the fee last time, it must have showed £28.60, and therefore there must have been nothing in the box for admin costs. Maybe I should have checked the amount, but i was ****ed off and flustered because we were literally in the process of moving house. I remember being relieved that the broadband had not yet been disconnected so I could do it!

EDIT: I'd like to thank everyone for their help on this. I only found this forum yesterday, but I've had a good look through the other threads in this section and I've learned a lot.

 

[jon0844]

It does sound like the IRCAS site is a mess if you can make a payment but not actually pay the required amount, and your anger and any complaint is better directed at them - although I think you've probably discovered on here that the company hasn't got the best reputation!

The most important thing is that you didn't do anything wrong (or certainly not intentionally, or with any intent to defraud or avoid payment etc).

 

[Greenback]

I'm sorry I haven't been around for a few days and so haven't had the opportunity to make further comment on this unfortunate situation.

I can well imagine that in the theat of rushing for a train with the member(s) of staff doing their best to help by processing the Penalty fare as quickly as possible, that it wasn't clear that Bluebirdnick would have to take the paperwork and the season to the window to have the PF cancelled.

I agree with bb21 that it is easy to say in hindsight that you should have looked at the notice carefully, should have double checked with the gate staff the next day and so on. Unfortunately, life is full of such incidents where we kick ourselves afterwards.

It is your decision whether to pay up and move on, or to fight it. I rather think I would choose the former, and mark it down as an unfortunate lesson to learn.

 

[Bluebirdnick]

I'm sorry I haven't been around for a few days and so haven't had the opportunity to make further comment on this unfortunate situation.

I can well imagine that in the theat of rushing for a train with the member(s) of staff doing their best to help by processing the Penalty fare as quickly as possible, that it wasn't clear that Bluebirdnick would have to take the paperwork and the season to the window to have the PF cancelled.

I agree with bb21 that it is easy to say in hindsight that you should have looked at the notice carefully, should have double checked with the gate staff the next day and so on. Unfortunately, life is full of such incidents where we kick ourselves afterwards.

It is your decision whether to pay up and move on, or to fight it. I rather think I would choose the former, and mark it down as an unfortunate lesson to learn.

Thanks. I'm doing a bit of both. I've paid the fare already (I did that months ago). IRCAS were after £60 for sending me two letters. Under the circumstances they have agreed to reduce this to £30, which I've paid, so at least that is the end of it as far as any serious consequences are concerned. I will write to GA to ask for the refund of the fare (£28.60) as I have a valid ticket for the journey. My anger at IRCAS is lessened after this thread because it is clear that this whole situation was a mess, and my story does not really tally with being issued a penalty fare, but they are a quasi-public company and their systems are simply not good enough to do the role they are supposed to be performing.

 

[Greenback]

Your anger with IRCAS is shared by many other people! You are not alone!

 

[34D]

Please keep us updated, should GA reply