Discretion or Inconsistency

[sd0733]

The setter of the TOC specific fare has been very clever. They operate ticket machines at one end of the route which list their fares at the top of the screen, they are the cheapest yet run less than 20% of the journey options with no direct services. In my view their practices bring the industry into disrepute, and other than profits all they achieve is to cause problems for the staff on the ground.

Yes, that's been done on one the routes I work too. I went and had a look as we were suddenly getting masses of them coming through and its not made clear on the TVMs that the ticket is hugely restricted. On one of the routes 1 train an hour out of 8 or 9 for a journey of 1 stop, that in my opinion is not what those tickets should be used for and causes no end of problems and revenue losses/bad pr for other companies and adds huge complications to passengers on what should be an easy local journey into town. At an estimate 75%+ of pax with those tickets genuinely believe they have valid tickets as its a train ticket from x to y as far as theyre concerned.

Going back to the discretion point, it has almost got to the point in a way of it being a free for all, passengers get accepted once and then push the boundaries further and further and blatantly take the mickey. Then a guard decides enough is enough says no, they get reported for doing their job and has a 'chat' with the manager and the passenger gets some vouchers to say sorry. What is the point in rules at all now that all the TOCs are so concerned about the Satisfaction scores that pretty much anything goes seems to be their preferred course of action making it impossible for front line staff to enforce any rules properly.

 

[johnnychips]

I just wondered that if guards showed discretion by not issuing penalty fares, or by not charging the standard fare that they should, because they realised that a passenger has genuinely made a mistake, or was in a rush and didn't have time to go to the ticket office or machine, this raises some issues:

- are guards actually allowed to show discretion, or should they issue the PF or full fare in all circumstances?

- if a guard does show discretion for a genuine mistake, does it give an impression to other passengers who observe it that it is, in fact, normal practice?

- does commission play a part?

- should there be a nationwide policy so staff and customers know where they stand?

Interested in your opinions.

 

[yorkie]

I just wondered that if guards showed discretion by not issuing penalty fares, or by not charging the standard fare that they should, because they realised that a passenger has genuinely made a mistake, or was in a rush and didn't have time to go to the ticket office or machine, this raises some issues:

- are guards actually allowed to show discretion, or should they issue the PF or full fare in all circumstances?

The Penalty Fare Policy (Strategic Rail Authority, 2002) states:

Authorised collectors have the power tocharge a penalty fare to passengers who do not have a valid ticket, but they also have the discretion not to charge a penalty in certain circumstances. Selection procedures must make sure that the people appointed as authorised collectors can handle this discretion, and the training must make sure that they know how to use it.

There is much more of relevance in that document (also see the answers to your other questions below).

- if a guard does show discretion for a genuine mistake, does it give an impression to other passengers who observe it that it is, in fact, normal practice?

I don't think there are that many Train Companies where Guards are authorised collectors. One that springs to mind is East Midlands Trains. Are there any others? Edit: Not even EMT; see below!

I think that any conversation can give an impression (sometimes a false one) to people who observe it, so care needs to be taken.

- does commission play a part?

Commission is mentioned here:

Authorised collectors and other staff who sell tickets on trains often receive commission on the value of the tickets they sell. Some operators also pay staff a small amount of commission (typically 5%) on the value of the penalty fares charged. We have no objection to this, as long as the percentage is small and the relevant instructions about the use of discretion and the circumstances in which penalty fares may or may not be charged are strictly followed

- should there be a nationwide policy so staff and customers know where they stand?

They all have their own polices, as clearly Grand Central & Hull Trains want you to board their train without a ticket so that they get their commission, while the Penalty Fare TOCs must make it clear that it is compulsory to buy before boarding (where facilities exist) with appropriate signage.

See ATOC Approved Code of Practice - Arrangements for travel ticket irregularities

Train companies will publish their Revenue Protection policies and procedures on their own websites and on the National Rail website, together with this Code of Practice.

 

[LowLevel]

All East Midlands Trains guards are authorised collectors for payments of unpaid fare notices only - no EMT guard is an authorised collector for the purpose of penalty fares however.

 

[Starmill]

Under all other circumstances, TM/RPI are a source of good humour, comraderie, and inspiration, or at the very worst, just another indifferent workday contact.

Really? All? That's a bold claim. I wonder how you could have come to such a conclusion.

 

[najaB]

Really? All? That's a bold claim. I wonder how you could have come to such a conclusion.

What, the claim that some TM/RPI's are friendly and chatty and some are not?

 

[Antman]

This thread reminds of a DLR ticket check I witnessed in London, in Zone 3, heading towards Zone 2.

A middle-aged businesswoman pleaded ignorant and was shown discretion when she only had a Z1-2 Travelcard, however when a youth in scruffy clothes presented a Z1-2 Travelcard he was written up for it. I can't help but feel it was because the woman was more likely to make a complaint, or that because of her age it was somehow more likely to be a genuine mistake. I believe she was well aware of what she was doing though.

Incidents like this really get my back up. I always have valid tickets, yet I'm constantly harrassed by staff who claim they aren't valid. However, if I was middle-aged and wearing formal clothes, I would get discretion and not even need to buy a valid ticket.

My experience on 'the big railway' has generally been the complete opposite, the smartly dressed person who is likely to be compliant is hit with a penalty fare whilst the 'chav' from whom they are likely to get a mouthful of abuse gets away with it.

From what I've seen on the DLR all passengers without valid tickets or oysters are asked to get off at the next station and make the necessary arrangements or pay a penalty fare.

 

[Flamingo]

Discretion: the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discretion

Guards and Revenue Staff have limited power to decide what course of action to pursue, taking all circumstances into account (not least what else is happning, time of day, available backup, and the individual passengers situtation).

Along with what I posted earlier in this thread, I take the view that my powers are de facto quite limited. Revenue staff have more powers, more time, and more resources. I expect Revenue staff to be more strict in applying the NRCoC as that, basically, is their job to do. Unless there is somebody "nasty" in the system to act as a deterrent, we really may as well put honesty boxes on the exits of stations and be done with it.

 

[185]

Discretion is often based on several factors. Not limited to... Politeness of customer, number of coffees consumed, early admission/acceptance of wrongdoing.... Allegedly.

Hard to say what discretion everyone should use as everyone is different.

 

[Haywain]

Discretion is often based on several factors. Not limited to... Politeness of customer, number of coffees consumed, early admission/acceptance of wrongdoing.... Allegedly.

Hard to say what discretion everyone should use as everyone is different.

To those factors you could add: willingness to get involved in a pointless argument; pressure from management to avoid getting complaints; time available to have a discussion.

 

[Starmill]

What, the claim that some TM/RPI's are friendly and chatty and some are not?

No, that there are no RPIs or TMs at all out there who do bad jobs and mistreat passengers.

 

[MikeWh]

Really? All? That's a bold claim. I wonder how you could have come to such a conclusion.

Can you remember clearly how you arrive at a conclusion around ten months after you say something? Why did you feel the need to ask now?

 

[richw]

I experienced discretion recently. I had a meeting that was due to finish at 1700, so I'd booked on about 1900 train home on an advance ticket to allow time to get to station and delays on my side. My all day meeting Was cancelled on arrival at the location due to illness of the meeting organiser.
I went to the station spoke to the ticket office, who advised me speak to the TM, it depends who the TM is whether it would be ok to jump on an earlier train. They implied some TMs will be fine and others would refuse me travel. The train originated from the station I was at so I was able to speak with TM well in advance of departure.
The TM was ok with it and scribbled on my ticket "auth to travel *traincode/ date/TM name*".

 

[VauxhallandI]

I experienced discretion recently. I had a meeting that was due to finish at 1700, so I'd booked on about 1900 train home on an advance ticket to allow time to get to station and delays on my side. My all day meeting Was cancelled on arrival at the location due to illness of the meeting organiser.
I went to the station spoke to the ticket office, who advised me speak to the TM, it depends who the TM is whether it would be ok to jump on an earlier train. They implied some TMs will be fine and others would refuse me travel. The train originated from the station I was at so I was able to speak with TM well in advance of departure.
The TM was ok with it and scribbled on my ticket "auth to travel *traincode/ date/TM name*".

And I got the opposite reaction when in the same circumstances :cry:

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst on one level having sympathy, there is a system in place to change Advance tickets, and if it was work-related, why not change the ticket at the booking office and then give the receipt to whoever does the expenses. I really don't see why a TOC should subsidise any other business.

Personally, if it's a business trip, I am much less inclined to be lenient than if a leisiure passenger.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Whilst on one level having sympathy, there is a system in place to change Advance tickets, and if it was work-related, why not change the ticket at the booking office and then give the receipt to whoever does the expenses. I really don't see why a TOC should subsidise any other business.

Personally, if it's a business trip, I am much less inclined to be lenient than if a leisiure passenger.

Not every business traveller is allowed to encure such charges especially without pre-authorisation.

 

[Flamingo]

Not every business traveller is allowed to encure such charges especially without pre-authorisation.

But that's a problem with their employer, not the Advance Ticket system.

 

[35B]

Yes, but if you're willing to apply discretion to some, it's a good reason to think why who pays may not be the best choice.

 

[richw]

Not every business traveller is allowed to encure such charges especially without pre-authorisation.

I don't have any business credit cards, I have to pay out and claim back, which takes a couple of weeks. I may not have the funds available to do this. When travelling for business I am less likely to have surplus funds as they come at very short notice, where as leisure trips are planned well in advance.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, everybody should get their firms to buy them flexible tickets...

 

[najaB]

Well, everybody should get their firms to buy them flexible tickets...

I agree with this in principle, however sometimes the price difference between an Advance and Off-Peak/Anytime ticket means that the bean counters insist on the Advance. Go figure.

 

[Flamingo]

I see lots of invalid split tickets where I get told "My firm bought this". I give them a receipt along with the new ticket I sell them, and tell them to take it up with whoever bought the ticket for them without telling them the restrictions...

 

[Merseysider]

I see lots of invalid split tickets where I get told "My firm bought this". I give them a receipt along with the new ticket I sell them, and tell them to take it up with whoever bought the ticket for them without telling them the restrictions...

Couldn't you be cheeky and join them up for a 19c with a 7DS from, eg Bristol to Newport? At £60 that might be more expensive cheaper than some full fares!

 

[najaB]

I see lots of invalid split tickets where I get told "My firm bought this". I give them a receipt along with the new ticket I sell them, and tell them to take it up with whoever bought the ticket for them without telling them the restrictions...

I have a little less sympathy for invalid splits as you have to specifically go looking for them.

 

[bb21]

Couldn't you be cheeky and join them up for a 19c with a 7DS from, eg Bristol to Newport? At £60 that might be more expensive cheaper than some full fares!

Photocard might be an issue.

 

[yorkie]

And I got the opposite reaction when in the same circumstances :cry:

Yes but how busy were the respective trains? A comparison cannot be made otherwise.

It's not just a case of some TMs will and some won't, but in the case of the person whose meeting was cancelled, that freed up space on the 1900. If that's the 1900 from Euston or King's Cross, they're very busy trains so it may make commercial sense to allow travel at 1000 (lightly loaded trains out of London at that time) or whatever time the all day meeting was due to start.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yes but how busy were the respective trains? A comparison cannot be made otherwise.

It's not just a case of some TMs will and some won't, but in the case of the person whose meeting was cancelled, that freed up space on the 1900. If that's the 1900 from Euston or King's Cross, they're very busy trains so it may make commercial sense to allow travel at 1000 (lightly loaded trains out of London at that time) or whatever time the all day meeting was due to start.

Iirc mine was a 16:00 York to KX, I had to sit around for three hours or so.

That's life but I wanted to point out that Guard's discretion is sometimes not a super power and assumptions can be wrong about people's motives.

I went to the Railway museum but lugging my baggage around wasn't fun!
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Well, everybody should get their firms to buy them flexible tickets...

I'd like to see a TOC doing the equivalent for its staff!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with this in principle, however sometimes the price difference between an Advance and Off-Peak/Anytime ticket means that the bean counters insist on the Advance. Go figure.

Indeed, many a trip be be not allowed.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Thankfully when I need to travel by train on business, my company books the tickets for me and always buys anytime returns. However the last company I worked for did "pay and claim back". I tended to drive with that company. It was much easier to claim mileage than argue the toss over rail tickets.