Differences between BR Cl141 & Cl142 Pacers

[CardiffKid]

Can someone please summarise the differences between a 141 and 142 for me?

Ta

 

[northwichcat]

A 142 has an extra set of doors on each side.

The 141s initially had different couplers but they were changed to the same type as the 142s in a later modification.

Apart from Heritage Lines 141s are no longer in passenger operation. The sets exported to Iran have been replaced by new DMUs as confirmed in another post.

 

[edwin_m]

The 141 was narrower with a crew vestibule behind each cab, so had less passenger space.

 

[Yew]

The sets exported to Iran have been replaced by new DMUs as confirmed in another post.

How Ironic, yet we are stuck with them for at least another 6 years...

 

[rebmcr]

The 142s also have a flat cab end, unlike 141s. 141s were a bit of a prototype, really.

 

[northwichcat]

The 142s also have a flat cab end, unlike 141s. 141s were a bit of a prototype, really.

Well this was the railbus prototype: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lev1nnr.jpg

Then this 'Pacer' prototype followed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Rail_class_140.jpg

Really the 155s or 175s were more of a prototype than the 141s.

 

[driver9000]

The 142s also have a flat cab end, unlike 141s. 141s were a bit of a prototype, really.

You may be thinking of the 140, the 141 cab front has a similar profile to the 142 (the windscreens rake back slightly). They were the first production run of the Railbus design following on from the 140 and various development vehicles.

The 141 was more of a standard Leyland National shell on rail wheels, the end lights were of the same type found on the bus. The body is narrower than the 142.

The cab of the 141 uses a standard Leyland dash panel for the desk while the 142 has a custom desk to fit the wider body profile.

The 141 retained the Leyland TL11 engine and 4 speed gearbox (bar one set which was fitted with a Cummins L10 engine and Voith transmission).

Originally fitted with Tightlock couplers with MU cables and main air pipes mounted on the nose below the windscreens. They later gained BSI couplers to enable them to work with the Pacer and Sprinter types.

Batteries are mounted below the cab on the 141, they are at the non-driving end on the 142.

 

[Darren R]

The cab ends on a 141 were much more untidy-looking than the subsequent Pacers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/6130170610/ (Not my pic.)

Additionally each coach had two doors on one side and only one on the other, meaning only three doors alongside the platform. On busy peak services around west Yorkshire this was a serious issue sometimes! The number of seats was quite limited too.

That said, I always preferred travelling on the 141s than the later 142s! I always thought they gave a better ride.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The cab ends on a 141 were much more untidy-looking than the subsequent Pacers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/6130170610/ (Not my pic.)

Additionally each coach had two doors on one side and only one on the other, meaning only three doors alongside the platform. On busy peak services around west Yorkshire this was a serious issue sometimes! The number of seats was quite limited too.

That said, I always preferred travelling on the 141s than the later 142s! I always thought they gave a better ride.

That photo is from before the refurbishment: When they were refurbed and had the couplers replaced, the front ends were tidied up a little.

The 141s were narrower (and a little shorter I think) and their seating arrangement was quite strange: Each vehicle had one passenger door on each side, located centrally. Towards the cab end, long benches of longitudinal seating ran up each side as far as the crew doors. Passengers were separated from this crew area by only a metal bar which slotted into anchor-points on the bulkhead, about 3ft from the floor (though the cab itself was enclosed and full-width). Towards the rear of each vehicle was mostly airline bus benches arranged in 2+2, though with a couple of single seats opposite the toilet in the DMSL.

I'd rather get a 141 than a 142 today too, but certainly not for the ride-quality! Bouncing through Morley tunnel in one of those things was certainly an experience!

 

[edwin_m]

Additionally each coach had two doors on one side and only one on the other, meaning only three doors alongside the platform.

Don't all the Pacers have this "feature"? The later classes have one door at the non-cab end so if the platform is on the wrong side you have to walk through the gangway.

 

[headshot119]

The crew doors at the cab end of each vehicle on the 141s are slam doors, which is probably one of the biggest visual differences.

 

[DarloRich]

I do wonder why these units were withdrawn as I am sure Northern could do with another 20 (well 19!) 2 car units to tack onto existing Pacer services.

Admittedly they were not the greatest of units nor the most reliable but I am sure they would have been useful today. I guess there was no work for them at the time.

 

[northwichcat]

I do wonder why these units were withdrawn as I am sure Northern could do with another 20 (well 19!) 2 car units to tack onto existing Pacer services.

They were withdrawn by Regional Railways North East after cascaded EMUs from the South East indirectly replaced them. The seated capacity on them was just 94 passengers per 2 car set and like any Pacer standing on them when they are bouncing up and down isn't too safe.

Northern certainly don't need more Pacers. If anything they need less Pacers and trains similar to the 172s in 3 car formation which would be better suited to the diagrams that pairs of Pacers are used on.

I can't believe that the one time the British railways get something right at the time people bemoan about it being the wrong decision because no proper plans were put in place when passenger numbers increased significantly years later.

 

[DarloRich]

They were withdrawn by Regional Railways North East after cascaded EMUs from the South East indirectly replaced them. The seated capacity on them was just 94 passengers per 2 car set and like any Pacer standing on them when they are bouncing up and down isn't too safe.

Northern certainly don't need more Pacers. If anything they need less Pacers and trains similar to the 172s in 3 car formation which would be better suited to the diagrams that pairs of Pacers are used on.

I can't believe that the one time the British railways get something right at the time people bemoan about it being the wrong decision because no proper plans were put in place when passenger numbers increased significantly years later.

I am sorry for not being the font of all knowledge pacer wise. I wasn't interested in railways at that time so didn't know why they had been withdrawn.

Furthermore i am not bemoaning anything with regard to the withdrawal of these units. I am quite aware of the faults of the Pacer having lived in the North East and Yorkshire for most of my life!

I am also not suggesting Northern need more Pacers. I am suggesting they need more trains! Had the 141's not been withdrawn they would be able to operate with the other members of the Pacer family adding more seats to crowded services. Awful as they are anything additional would be an improvement on some Northern services!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well this was the railbus prototype: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lev1nnr.jpg

I fondly imagine such an image with a Pacer and a Class 08 shunter being combined as one that would bring much new revenue to Northern Rail from the enthusiast fraternity....but only on branch line services..

 

[142094]

They were withdrawn by Regional Railways North East after cascaded EMUs from the South East indirectly replaced them. The seated capacity on them was just 94 passengers per 2 car set and like any Pacer standing on them when they are bouncing up and down isn't too safe.

Northern certainly don't need more Pacers. If anything they need less Pacers and trains similar to the 172s in 3 car formation which would be better suited to the diagrams that pairs of Pacers are used on.

I can't believe that the one time the British railways get something right at the time people bemoan about it being the wrong decision because no proper plans were put in place when passenger numbers increased significantly years later.

I'm sure most, if not all passengers, who have to travel on some of the most overcrowded services in the North couldn't care less what was added to a formation to strengthen it. After all, a seat is a seat.

 

[northwichcat]

Had the 141's not been withdrawn they would be able to operate with the other members of the Pacer family adding more seats to crowded services. Awful as they are anything additional would be an improvement on some Northern services!

Unless there were suitable services for them to operate on at the time the only options were:
1. Export - brings in revenue
2. Put in warm storage - incurs costs
3. Scrap - incurs costs

So 1 was the right option at the time.

Remember in the first couple of years of the Northern franchise when 12 x 142s were withdrawn by Northern because they received 30 x 158s? If the 141s had been in warm storage at that point they almost certainly would have been scrapped then as it wouldn't have been economically viable to keep them in warm storage when better trains were also in warm storage.

It wasn't until around 2008 then DfT decided Northern needed more stock. How much would keeping 12 trains in warm storage for 11 years have costed?

 

[Darren R]

Don't all the Pacers have this "feature"? The later classes have one door at the non-cab end so if the platform is on the wrong side you have to walk through the gangway.

Oh yeah - so they do! Strange how memory works. The door arrangement on the 141s I specifically remember, because it was so unusual at the time. I'm so used to this same arrangement on 142s I don't think about it anymore - but the 141 doors were so much narrower than the 142s, and at busy stations it made it slow.

The bars across the carriage blocking off the cab-end doors to passengers were mostly only used at the driver end on the services I used. Most guards seemed to remove them when they changed ends upon terminating at Leeds.