Designation of First Class

[Bletchleyite]

My expectation of Intercity First Class is what Virgin were offering in the 2000s, a light meal served on china on most weekday services and a decent snack and hot/cold drinks at the weekend. I did it a couple of times and got a small cooked breakfast, coffee, juice and toast or pastries on the train from Birmingham to London. If boarding at Milton Keynes I wouldn't expect the breakfast but a coffee and maybe a croissant and that should be reflected in the ticket price that Birmingham to London has time for a light meal but MK doesn't.

It basically is. The interavailable* First Class fare from MKC-Euston is set by LNR and so proportionally a lot cheaper than the longer distance ones.

* Well, not much use on LNR, but it exists. Avanti seem to have removed their dedicated 1st fares other than a Travelcard, this is quite possibly because why would you want to go 1st rather than Standard Premium when the difference is a coffee you've probably bought before boarding or taken with you from home anyway? So what most people doing that would probably do would either be to buy a SP Advance one way and a walk up LNR single the other, or but a Standard return and an SP upgrade on board.

 

[09matpal]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this but in my view 1st class on outer suburban basically guarantees you a seat in return for a higher fare.

If I'm doing a journey like Stevenage to Exeter in 1st class I'd rather not sit on a Thameslink ironing board seat between Stevenage and London.

That is pretty much what I meant you pay more to reserve a space in the quieter part of the train, I know Southern still have it but SouthEastern, GWR and Greater Anglia have gotten rid of first class at least with the last 2 the seats were a bit of an improvement going from 3+2 to 2+2.

Thameslink is a strange one with the first class seats being the same as standard on other long distance services. As much as we like to discuss removing these sections if there is clearly a value to people like yourselves and enough people use it I don't see them going away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't this basically what Avanti call standard premier? Its the better seat but none of the service benefits like food/drink.

Avanti call it that yes, but it's what 1st is in most of Europe away from the Romance style (France, Italy and Spain) high speed services.

I'm not sure having the third class is helpful. I'd just change SP to 1st and bin proper 1st, paid-for food and drink can be served at your seat, or you can use the money saved for a M&S banquet which is better than any on train food anyway. 1st really needs to now be a leisure and self-upgrade product, so you can no longer inflate the price justified by tax-avoiding* freebies.

The idea in the thread is interesting, though, and does tally with how Indian Railways and I think Thai railways do it - what a given class offers is very consistent, but there are about 10-20 classes reflecting that.

* For a day trip an evening meal would be a taxable benefit unless you get home very late and would incur VAT. Including it as a complimentary in an elevated fare works around both that and VAT liability.

 

[156421]

Isn't this basically what Avanti call standard premier? Its the better seat but none of the service benefits like food/drink.

Yes which in practice meant you pay £25+ for the privilege of a plug socket to charge your phone. Probably cheaper to just buy a powerbank. Also it is becoming increasingly pointless as more and more 390s are refurbished so that the airline style seats have sockets in standard class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes which in practice meant you pay £25+ for the privilege of a plug socket to charge your phone. Probably cheaper to just buy a powerbank. Also it is becoming increasingly pointless as more and more 390s are refurbished so that the airline style seats have sockets in standard class.

No, you pay £25+ for a wider seat and more legroom. You may not value this, but some of us do. It's a differentiator - the idea is that if you value the upgraded product you'll buy it, but if you don't you aren't put off travel as you would be if all fares were that expensive and all seats that comfortable. (I think Pendolino 1st is the most comfortable railway seat in the UK by a very considerable margin).

I value particularly highly a seat that is both window and aisle. (I won't upgrade to sit on the 2 side).

 

[Helvellyn]

Although the train has first class accommodation there's no reason why it should be available for short journeys such as this. There are EMR Inter City Up trains that stop at Bedford or Wellingborough and a first class fare is not available from those stations.

If EMR had been allowed by DfT to deliver their plans for EMR Connect the Class 360s would be runnining as 12-car units with 2+2 seating in Standard, extra luggage racks for Luton Airport traffic and a proper First Class section in each unit with 2+1 seating. First Class fares have been withdrawn from Wellingborough by stealth because the units are not refurbished meaning you can get First from Kettering and Bedford (albeit on Thameslink) but not Wellingborough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If EMR had been allowed by DfT to deliver their plans for EMR Connect the Class 360s would be runnining as 12-car units with 2+2 seating in Standard, extra luggage racks for Luton Airport traffic and a proper First Class section in each unit with 2+1 seating. First Class fares have been withdrawn from Wellingborough by stealth because the units are not refurbished meaning you can get First from Kettering and Bedford (albeit on Thameslink) but not Wellingborough.

The units have First Class, it's just South East style 2+2 in the end bits by the cabs, which is acceptable as it's one fewer seat across than Standard. They could call it 1st if they wanted, they've just chosen not to.

Interestingly that area on 350s isn't designated First Class but due to the excellent legroom, particularly at the table seat, is better than the area that was so designated!

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the working week, 3 a day from Wellingborough, and 1 from Bedford.

54 a day from MK.

And there are first class fares from Bedford to London. £80.80 anytime return any operator.

The suggestion was made the First Class passenger should receive a meal as well as drinks. You pointed out that Avanti trains provided a service with First Class between Milton Keynes and Euston, implying that would be impractical in that case. My response was to suggest that disappointment could be avoided by not providing tickets for such a journey, and pointing out that EMR Intercity did not issue First Class tickets for shorter journeys where then great majority of services are standard class only. I accept that I was mistaken in including Bedford (served also by Thameslink with 1st).

Interestingly, I've tried, using NRES, to obtain a First Class ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston for either today or a day 4 weeks in the future. In both cases, although a First Class fare is offered (at the header of the fares column) in both cases trying to obtain a ticket has resulted in the message ' ...haven't found a ticket meeting your requirements ..' So perhaps that's what already happens. I've tried the same for the ultimate short Avanti journey - New St to Sandwell & Dudley, - with the same lack of luck. However, and very curiously, NRES will happily provide me with a First Class ticket from Northampton to any destination to the North reached by changing at Rugby onto Avanti even though I would search in vain for any First Class facilities on the first stage of my journey.

I am sorry, but I can't see the significance of the number of trains - there are a similarly large (or maybe larger) number of LNwR services between Milton Keynes and Euston which are standard class only. I have the impression that Avanti trains calling at Milton Keynes are primarily for journeys to and from further North, rather than to Euston and the number of trains to the latter is a function of that. My impression seems to be supported by the number of set down/pick up only stops in the peak which prevent travel on those trains to London but obviously not to further North. There certainly were First Class commuters between Milton Keynes and Euston before the pandemic and it would be interesting to know how many still travel.

 

[Helvellyn]

The units have First Class, it's just South East style 2+2 in the end bits by the cabs, which is acceptable as it's one fewer seat across than Standard. They could call it 1st if they wanted, they've just chosen not to.

Interestingly that area on 350s isn't designated First Class but due to the excellent legroom, particularly at the table seat, is better than the area that was so designated!

They haven't designated it as such because they didn't regard it as a suitable First Class product hence the original plan to refurbish and put Aurora (Class 810) style seats in to create a proper 2+1 First Class. At best I now think the 360s will get Aurora style 2+2 seating throughout, mid option 2+2 seating throughout using existing seats and spacers (like on 455s) and worst option is retain existing 3+2 seats but with some luggage stacks added so the former First Class areas get the same style seats. But I doubt DfT will allow reintroduction of First Class, which apparently did have a decent market pre-electrification.