commuter1982
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I'm not sure. I want to get in touch with the customer service team and explain the situation to them but I doubt they will listen or accept it.
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Delay repay declined
- Thread starter commuter1982
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I'm not sure. I want to get in touch with the customer service team and explain the situation to them but I doubt they will listen or accept it.
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RailUK Forums
You can’t claim Delay Repay if you don’t travel and are not delayed.
If you have claimed for a journey where you didn’t travel then this is not a legitimate claim. What are the two stations on your season ticket?
bb21
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There is a quite big difference between when a regular journey is frequently delayed, and compensated for, and when a random scatter of journeys all happen to be delayed, while most other journeys on such routes tend to run fine.
As AlterEgo says, not impossible, but the latter is highly likely to arouse suspicion. Obviously the degree of suspicion would depend on the context, but I would concur that such letters are not sent willy-nilly. If the OP can supply some meaningful evidence for his varied journeys then it would make things easier for everyone, but of course he is under no obligation to do so.
For example, in view of the letter received, I would say for any future legitimate claims, a photo is taken of the departure screen with time clearly shown where possible. If you can do it for a small number of occasions backing up your claims to travel in such a random way, they may then make a note against your ticket and name to prevent this suspicion being highlighted in the future. Entirely up to you of course, and they can't refuse a payout if they have no good reason not to, but as I said above, it is one suggestion that would help make things easier for everyone.
I might be reading it wrong, but I get the impression that the traveller, sees online the train is late, so does not go to the station to catch it, so takes an alternate route, or maybe later trrain ? So will not be in a position to take a photo as he is not actually there yet ?
matt_world2004
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I have irregular but legitimate station usage patterns and the way I have been treated by some railway staff because of this I am highly likely to believe that a valid claim could be refused.
If it is legitimate then carry on claiming.
The advice about taking a photo seems good.
I repeat my assertion that Southern are acting outrageously here if somebody is being denied legitimate Delay Repay. They can be as suspicious as they like about your travel pattern but can do nothing.
The advice about taking a photo seems good.
I repeat my assertion that Southern are acting outrageously here if somebody is being denied legitimate Delay Repay. They can be as suspicious as they like about your travel pattern but can do nothing.
The OP has already admitted they have made claims which are not legitimate.
While we don’t know the full details, someone legitimately claiming to be delayed “most days” and most of the claims are for “60 minutes” is basically unheard of.
Unless the OP provides us with full details, like:
- The origin and destination of the season ticket
- How many claims they have made in a certain length of time
- Whether they have been claiming against different Permitted routes or starting short on their ticket
we will be unable to provide an honest assessment of whether Southern are right to feel suspicious.
If the OP has done nothing wrong then there will be no issue in providing full details, because we will then be able to provide some help. As it stands at the minute, I wouldn’t advise the OP to make any further claims.
I was doing likewise. This is an appalling route for reliability - probably Southern’s worst. However this didn’t result in a claim for “over 60 minutes” on “most days”.
Unless it's the same person, I know of another individual who has been told they cannot make further claims (this time on Great Northern).
I also recall there being a member on here who used to check train times from work and leave later if a train was delayed or cancelled, but then claim for it.
I think there was an argument at the time as to whether you're entitled to claim when you weren't even at the station. Were you really delayed because you stayed in the office/pub? Some might argue yes, as you didn't want to stay but there was no point going to the station if there was no train.
The problem is that you could then claim you might have wanted to be on just about any train that was delayed. I don't know the T&Cs but perhaps you do actually have to be AT the station to be able to claim for a delayed train, as inconvenient as that might be.
At the station, the TOC has options to get you on a bus or call you a taxi, perhaps, or give you advice on alternative travel arrangements. None of that can be done if you decided to go for another round in the pub instead.
I would say that if your claims are always genuine, keep claiming. You are entitled to claim for all genuine delays, however many there are, but don't be surprised if you get put under investigation. It doesn't mean you're guilty of anything, but a train operator has a right to protect revenue.
I also recall there being a member on here who used to check train times from work and leave later if a train was delayed or cancelled, but then claim for it.
I think there was an argument at the time as to whether you're entitled to claim when you weren't even at the station. Were you really delayed because you stayed in the office/pub? Some might argue yes, as you didn't want to stay but there was no point going to the station if there was no train.
The problem is that you could then claim you might have wanted to be on just about any train that was delayed. I don't know the T&Cs but perhaps you do actually have to be AT the station to be able to claim for a delayed train, as inconvenient as that might be.
At the station, the TOC has options to get you on a bus or call you a taxi, perhaps, or give you advice on alternative travel arrangements. None of that can be done if you decided to go for another round in the pub instead.
I would say that if your claims are always genuine, keep claiming. You are entitled to claim for all genuine delays, however many there are, but don't be surprised if you get put under investigation. It doesn't mean you're guilty of anything, but a train operator has a right to protect revenue.
Fawkes Cat
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If I've understood the OP's position correctly
- you have a season ticket
- it's on Southern
- it's a straightforward A-B journey
- off-peak, the service is one train an hour
- you need to make this journey up to three or four times a day to drop off documents and so on
- on completing the A-B journey, you immediately go straight back again (i.e. B-A)
- before leaving for the station, you often check whether the train is delayed, using National Rail Enquiries
- if the train you were planning to get is cancelled or delayed, you leave the office in time for another train which may not be the one straight after the train you were first aiming for
- if the train you were planning to get was cancelled, sometimes you don't travel
There's two angles to this which I think you should bear in mind
1) Look at it from the railway's point of view: the railway basically caters for two sorts of passenger - commuters, who go from home to work, stay there all day and then go home again, and casual travellers, who go somewhere for a reason, stay there for that reason, and then go home again. The pattern you've told us about is rather different: at the most extreme, you could be going from home (A) to work (B), then B-A-B with essentially no pause at A up to four times a day. There's nothing wrong with doing this on a season ticket, but it is unusual. When you are then claiming for delay repay on A-B and B-A journeys at varying times in the day, this is even more unusual - and will cost the railway money.
So someone is doing something unusual that will extract money from the railway. From the railway's point of view, this is what an attempt to defraud the railway would look like. Please note that I am not accusing you of fraud: I am just drawing your attention to what it might look like to the railway.
As people have pointed out, the onus is on the railway to prove that you are trying to defraud them, and not for you to prove your innocence. But in practice, it will save you a lot of hassle if you give the railway further information to demonstrate why you have such an unusual journey pattern. As various people have suggested upthread, this could well take the form of a letter from your employer, confirming that your duties involve taking papers from one location to another, and confirming (what I infer to be the case) that one of the locations is very close to the station, thus explaining your need to travel B-A and then back again on the next A-B train.
2) Look at the precise wording of the delay repay rules: I see that the GTR (the group which includes Southern) Passenger's Charter includes the following
The last sentence is the important bit. You need to have made the journey (and this is also implicit in the first sentence). So if you have been claiming delay repay for journeys which you intended to make but actually chose not to, Southern are right to refuse Delay Repay for those occasions. You've already found that they are (to say the least) looking closely at your claims. It would be sensible not to make claims that don't meet the letter of the rules as that will only encourage Southern to look more closely. I'd also suggest that if you are expecting Southern to abide by the letter of the Delay Repay scheme then it's only fair that you also abide by the letter of the scheme.
- you have a season ticket
- it's on Southern
- it's a straightforward A-B journey
- off-peak, the service is one train an hour
- you need to make this journey up to three or four times a day to drop off documents and so on
- on completing the A-B journey, you immediately go straight back again (i.e. B-A)
- before leaving for the station, you often check whether the train is delayed, using National Rail Enquiries
- if the train you were planning to get is cancelled or delayed, you leave the office in time for another train which may not be the one straight after the train you were first aiming for
- if the train you were planning to get was cancelled, sometimes you don't travel
There's two angles to this which I think you should bear in mind
1) Look at it from the railway's point of view: the railway basically caters for two sorts of passenger - commuters, who go from home to work, stay there all day and then go home again, and casual travellers, who go somewhere for a reason, stay there for that reason, and then go home again. The pattern you've told us about is rather different: at the most extreme, you could be going from home (A) to work (B), then B-A-B with essentially no pause at A up to four times a day. There's nothing wrong with doing this on a season ticket, but it is unusual. When you are then claiming for delay repay on A-B and B-A journeys at varying times in the day, this is even more unusual - and will cost the railway money.
So someone is doing something unusual that will extract money from the railway. From the railway's point of view, this is what an attempt to defraud the railway would look like. Please note that I am not accusing you of fraud: I am just drawing your attention to what it might look like to the railway.
As people have pointed out, the onus is on the railway to prove that you are trying to defraud them, and not for you to prove your innocence. But in practice, it will save you a lot of hassle if you give the railway further information to demonstrate why you have such an unusual journey pattern. As various people have suggested upthread, this could well take the form of a letter from your employer, confirming that your duties involve taking papers from one location to another, and confirming (what I infer to be the case) that one of the locations is very close to the station, thus explaining your need to travel B-A and then back again on the next A-B train.
2) Look at the precise wording of the delay repay rules: I see that the GTR (the group which includes Southern) Passenger's Charter includes the following
The last sentence is the important bit. You need to have made the journey (and this is also implicit in the first sentence). So if you have been claiming delay repay for journeys which you intended to make but actually chose not to, Southern are right to refuse Delay Repay for those occasions. You've already found that they are (to say the least) looking closely at your claims. It would be sensible not to make claims that don't meet the letter of the rules as that will only encourage Southern to look more closely. I'd also suggest that if you are expecting Southern to abide by the letter of the Delay Repay scheme then it's only fair that you also abide by the letter of the scheme.
I might be misreading this, but the last sentences come across as 'I check the train times, and if one's delayed I'll wait for that instead of go for the first one'. If you've had any communication with the company and used phrases such as these, I can see why they might be suspicious (in conjunction with other factors).
I think you'll find they can...
If the OP has come here to ask for advice, then they really need to do as AlterEgo has suggested and provide the necessary information to allow others to give advice.
If not, then it looks like this thread has run its course.
If not, then it looks like this thread has run its course.
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