Darlington-Settle

[philjo]

Going from Darlington to Settle on Mon 16 August. on Fri 20, going from Settle to Leeds.
Is there any ticket combination better than the £38 SVR Darlington-Settle ?
I can use part of the return portion of this to get back to Leeds on the Friday.
(On the saturday I have a £9 advance for Leeds to Stevenage, so won't need to get back to Darlington)
On the journey to Settle, don't mind which way I go though I would probably go via Hexham/Carlisle as I don't go that way very often.

Many thanks,
Jeremy

 

[rail-britain]

Mon 16 Aug Darlington - Settle
Fri 20 Aug Settle - Leeds

Given this itenerary it would be best to split the tickets into singles
£32.20 Darlington - Leeds / Leeds - Settle
£9.90 Settle - Leeds
You can then travel on any trains on those routes

You could further split the outward journey, but this will restrict you to specific trains
Therefore please advise what sort of times you intend to travel
09:44 Darlington - Leeds £8.00
Any train after 11:30 Leeds - Settle £9.90
Total £17.90

 

[sonic2009]

If i remeber rightly on a another post a while a go a carlisle to middlesborough anytime return @ £22.80 is valid via hexham and leeds/settle. So you could use it to settle and stop short.. Other people will confirm if you can do this. As im on phone and cant look up.

 

[John @ home]

a carlisle to middlesborough anytime return @ £22.80 is valid via hexham and leeds/settle.

Absolutely right, sonic2009!

The maps showing permitted Middlesbrough - Carlisle routes are:

Permitted Route Identifier

Middlesbrough Group - Carlisle:
ER+HX MM+TP MM+WY+LY+NE NC+MH+TP NE+LY+WY+GM+NW

Taking just the first two combinations, shown in bold:

• ER+HX allows (Middlesbrough) - Darlington - Newcastle on map ER, followed by Newcastle - Carlisle on map HX
• MM+TP allows Carlisle - Settle - Hellifield - Leeds on map MM, followed by Leeds - York - Darlington - (Middlesbrough) on map TP.

The outward portion of this £22.80 Anytime Return Middlesbrough - Carlisle route Any Permitted ticket is valid for 5 days and you would use the whole of this portion travelling Darlington - Newcastle - Carlisle on Monday 16 August. Your would then start your "return" journey, valid for 1 month, the same day by travelling Carlisle - Appleby - Settle, where you would break your journey. Resuming on Friday 20 August, you would travel Settle - Hellifield - Leeds, where you would again break your journey.

This would leave you with a partly used return portion of your ticket which would be valid for any part of Leeds - York - (Darlington or Yarm) - Middlesbrough until Wednesday 15 September. You may find some use for this.

 

[philjo]

Many thanks for that sonic2009 & John@Home.

I thought that there must be a better ticket to use!

 

[Dewedin]

That's an amazing saving over a Leeds-Darlington Anytime Return of £40.10! I will certainly remember this one.

 

[yorkie]

That's an amazing saving over a Leeds-Darlington Anytime Return of £40.10! I will certainly remember this one.

Leeds-Darlington Off Peak is valid on any train. You only need an Anytime if you require the 5-day outward validity.

Darlington-Leeds Off Peak does have restrictions and to get round this you can split at York. There is a far better ticket which I'll PM you about.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Can someone explain to me how this is valid when the fares on shorter sections (ie Middlesbrough - Leeds) cost far more.

Also, looking on East Coast it offers me travel via Manchester and WCML for the same fare. Also valid? How about via the Cumbrian Coast (pushing it now....!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
<checks routeing guide> Lets see if I can answer my own question. Middlesbrough and Carlisle and both routeing points so as such I don't need to check any fares for any other stations to either of these.

ER+HX Via Newcastle and the Tyne Valley
MM+TP to York, then via the S&C. York - Leeds can be done via Selby, Doncaster & Meadowhall or direct
MM+WY+LY+NE Same as MM + TP
NC+MH+TP to Leeds then Little North Western or Copy Pit to Preston / Lancaster then via Shap or the coast
NE+LY+WY+GM+NW Middlesbrough to Leeds then either via Calder Valley or Standege to Manchester then to Preston via Bolton or Wigan and on to Carlisle via Shap or the coast

Please tell me I have this right! Living in Thornaby this is the daddy ticket - a north country (plus more!) day ranger offering a huge choice of routes for beans!

 

[John @ home]

Can someone explain to me how this is valid when the fares on shorter sections (ie Middlesbrough - Leeds) cost far more.

That's what I intended to do in post #4 above. It's probably best if you read the Instructions for the National Routeing Guide and come back here with specific questions. For travel between Routeing Points, the fares for shorter sections are not a factor.

Also, looking on East Coast it offers me travel via Manchester and WCML for the same fare. Also valid? How about via the Cumbrian Coast (pushing it now....!)

As I pointed out in post #4, Middlesbrough Group - Carlisle is permitted using map combinations ER+HX or MM+TP or MM+WY+LY+NE or NC+MH+TP or NE+LY+WY+GM+NW.

Taking just the last combination, this permits, for example,
NE: Middlesbrough - (Darlington or Yarm) - Northallerton - York - (Harrogate or Garforth) - Leeds;
LY: Leeds - [(Bradford - Halifax) or Dewsbury] - Huddersfield;
WY: Huddersfield - Stalybridge;
GM: Stalybridge - (Guide Bridge or Ashton-under-Lyne) - Manchester;
NW: Manchester - Bolton - (Wigan or Chorley) - Preston - Lancaster - (Penrith or Workington) - Carlisle.

 

[yorkie]

Can someone explain to me how this is valid

This has been covered many times before, a quick search reveals this analysis from John @ Home:

http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=465767&highlight=middlesbrough+carlisle#post465767

when the fares on shorter sections (ie Middlesbrough - Leeds) cost far more.

I could spend ages giving you a list of tickets from A to C via B, that are cheaper than A to B or B to C!

It's actually quite common. It's the opposite of 'splitting' the journey into a combination of tickets, which is more well known.

Many other examples have been given on this forum previously, although some I am reluctant to list because when ATOC find out they try to mess about with the Routeing Guide and remove the anomalies.

I'll give you an example: York - Sheffield is cheaper than York - Doncaster if you want to return at a later day (ie, return within 1 month rather than 1 day) and if travelling before 0930, despite Sheffield being further. I could even make that Cattal to Dronfield and I'm doubling the distance for less money. And I have a few more days to complete the outward journey. Many, many more examples exist.

Also, looking on East Coast it offers me travel via Manchester and WCML for the same fare. Also valid? How about via the Cumbrian Coast (pushing it now....!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
<checks routeing guide> Lets see if I can answer my own question. Middlesbrough and Carlisle and both routeing points so as such I don't need to check any fares for any other stations to either of these.

ER+HX Via Newcastle and the Tyne Valley
MM+TP to York, then via the S&C. York - Leeds can be done via Selby, Doncaster & Meadowhall or direct
MM+WY+LY+NE Same as MM + TP
NC+MH+TP to Leeds then Little North Western or Copy Pit to Preston / Lancaster then via Shap or the coast
NE+LY+WY+GM+NW Middlesbrough to Leeds then either via Calder Valley or Standege to Manchester then to Preston via Bolton or Wigan and on to Carlisle via Shap or the coast

Please tell me I have this right! Living in Thornaby this is the daddy ticket - a north country (plus more!) day ranger offering a huge choice of routes for beans!

Yes, but now it's been mentioned on here, the days of this ticket being valid by such numerous routes are probably numbered!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Thanks both of you!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Finally got a free Saturday coming up this weekend so....

Thornaby - Carlisle Anytime Return collect from Darlington machine. Start/Stop at Darlo.
Darlington - Leeds - Carlisle - Barrow - Preston - Manchester - York - Darlington

Going armed with Routeing Points, Maps - the whole guide shebang. Wondering on how many of the 6 trains in the plan I'll get challenged to walk them through the maps? I take it that if an ill-informed gripper demands ching that I stand my ground?

 

[yorkie]

Going via Manchester is pushing it, and I would expect someone to challenge it.

If you are prepared to either pay, or dispute it, then go for it.

Be aware that if you dispute it, the RG will probably be changed more drastically than just removing Manchester, and may not win you any friends!

The more publicity the useful ticket gets, and the more it is used on bizarre routes, the more likely it is for it to be re-routed.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Going via Manchester is pushing it, and I would expect someone to challenge it.

If you are prepared to either pay, or dispute it, then go for it.

So how does it work? ATOC publish a routeing guide, I follow it. Happy to have a gripper challenge it, and plan to walk them through the guide - both stations are routeing points, here's the list of relevant maps, here's the route.

If a gripper challenges it on what grounds - that the routeing guide is wrong? Don't they have to accept it?

 

[tony_mac]

yes, you can have a look at problems with it; have a look at this thread...

I tried to explain and had every page of the Routing Guide and its maps printed but he wasn’t interested insisting I detrain at Salisbury and see the ticket office staff saying that “online printouts always show what you want them to show.” Agreeing with this I offered to log on and show him online on the ATOC website and once again he refused saying ATOC is nothing to do with his train company.

...
She said that used a different system to me as it was RGIS. I told her that system was the same as mine but she insisted that she’d never heard of maps or the routing guide (great for a ticket expert!) and whilst agreeing Exeter appeared on both maps denied it was valid and said that she only used her system and never ATOC whoever they were.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

*grin* Its got to be depressing when the companies don't want to obey their own rules. Anything in the National Conditions of Carriage that specifies that TOCs have to obey their own routeing guide?

Oh yeah, 13a(iii) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide

Have just stuck Thornaby to Carlisle in the East Coast ticketing engine. Gives me an option of TPE only, which is of course via Manchester!

OK, am I asking for suicidal trouble in trying it? Its valid, it comes up on ticket websites as valid. I take it that if I did get gripped and refused and challenged it that an appeal would be successful? But is it worth it?

So would the via Leeds and Settle leg be less of a problem?

 

[yorkie]

If you got an Advance Purchase ticket on TPE then that is far less likely to cause problems as TPE will get 100% of the revenue and the guard will of course understand why you have to go that way, and no-one can possibly complain at that.

NT probably won't complain at you using an Any Permitted ticket via Settle but bring the RG maps anyway.

NCL-CAR was stopped via Leeds / Manchester because someone wrote in to complain (they didn't bring the maps with them) when they were charged. They got their money back (correctly) but the RG was then amended.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So how does it work? ATOC publish a routeing guide, I follow it.

The railway companies make up rules as they go along.

XC and EMT completely ignore Condition 10 for example!

Got the money to sue them? No? So when overcharged you have to spend hours writing letters and arguing.

Happy to have a gripper challenge it, and plan to walk them through the guide - both stations are routeing points, here's the list of relevant maps, here's the route.

If a gripper challenges it on what grounds - that the routeing guide is wrong? Don't they have to accept it?

Yes, they do have to accept it. But be prepared for an argument and potential dispute leading potentially, to eventual withdrawal of the route concerned.

You can't trust the TOCs and you can't trust ATOC.

Even people within ATOC can't agree and contradict each other.

 

[tony_mac]

one problem is that the staff on the ground rarely know about the routeing guide, and how to use it.
If the computer allows it, then at least they may be able to check (if they have time etc.), if the computer says no, then you may well have a problem.

If I wanted to do it, I would at least book seat reservations so there can be no argument that you were sold tickets for that specific route.
I would also book them with the website of the TOC concerned, so they can't so easily say 'it's a mistake on the website and not our fault'.

I have used that ticket via Leeds a couple of times, only once was it checked and the guard was ok with it, once I said I had travelled via Leeds - he initially thought I had given him the wrong ticket. Although he did mention that it was a long way round!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Perhaps this is starting to sound like more hassle than its worth. Was prepared to be challenged to explain the route, but the example of the SWT staff saying that the Routeing Guide (and thus NCoC) had no validity on SWT is alarming.

OK so if I got told to buy a new ticket I could stand my ground and start quoting NCoC at them and refuse, but can I be bothered? Whats the success rate in using that argument? "My ticket was sold in accordance with the NCoC, clause 13aiii says use the Routeing Guide, here is the guide and the maps, there is the route".

 

[tony_mac]

Personally, I wouldn't use it just for the sake of it; you will be making life difficult for yourself, and also increase the risk of the routeing being altered in future.

However, raileasy allows you to book that route and get seat reservations. It is much more difficult for them to say the route is invalid if you have been reserved on that train.

 

[sheff1]

Condition 59 in the NRCoC is clear:
Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

So if the route is in the National Routeing Guide, then no staff member can change your entitlement to go that way as per Condition 13(a)(iii)

 

[Wolfie]

The railway companies make up rules as they go along.

XC and EMT completely ignore Condition 10 for example!

Got the money to sue them? No? So when overcharged you have to spend hours writing letters and arguing.

Yorkie

County Court (aka "small claims" court) fees start at £30 for a £300 claim.....hell yes I would sue them! Particularly when their defence bills would be way in excess of this.....

See:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm

 

[RochdalePioneers]

It's a debate I'll have to save for another day - had an invite to stay with friends this weekend. But I do like the post limiting their authority. Not sure the more assertive tripper would like it though.