Cycling bans in pedestrianised town centres

[takno]

I find this hard to believe unless you are assuming every bus is full , which unless it's a school leaving time , is rarely true.

If you're judging on current traffic levels then a lot of bike lanes only see about 20-30 bikes an hour. There's several main roads in Edinburgh where there are literally fewer cyclists than there were buses in the lane they converted.

In terms of peak capacity, you'll struggle to get 10 cyclists in a bike lane in the space taken up by a bus in a bus lane. If the bus is a double decker then peak capacity there is more like 100.

 

[johncrossley]

If you're judging on current traffic levels then a lot of bike lanes only see about 20-30 bikes an hour. There's several main roads in Edinburgh where there are literally fewer cyclists than there were buses in the lane they converted.

You can hardly judge things based on the UK situation! How about using data from locations where the bike mode share is over 30%?

 

[takno]

You can hardly judge things based on the UK situation! How about using data from locations where the bike mode share is over 30%?

And yet you wanted to judge on current UK usage when describing how empty you seem to imagine the buses are. In any case this is getting wildly off topic, and I think I've said pretty much everything I want to on the topic.

 

[Dr_Paul]

my controversial view is that

• If, in Britain, we gave people direct & attractive cycle routes and didn’t expect them to alternate between dodging 30mph traffic and dismounting/walking, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. More people would cycle, and they would do so at normal speeds, like they do in countries like Holland and Denmark
• The box boys on illegal jerry-rigged e-motorbikes are a product of both hostile street design for cycle-like vehicles and a form of modern slavery where workers are effectively penalised by their employers for following the rules when delivering cooked meals to their customers. All the risk is either taken on by the rider or externalised onto the public.

Yes, I've noticed in several places where a bike lane will suddenly veer across to the other side of a busy road, such as London Road near the Park Road roundabout in Kingston, or suddenly end at a bus-stop outside a busy railway station, as at Raynes Park. I guess there are real problems in finding spaces for them, without reducing the roadway width too much (and indeed the Portsmouth Road west of Kingston has been narrowed by a wide bike lane to the point where in places two buses or lorries can barely pass each other). Most roads in Britain were made for horse and carts, and bringing them up to date with bike lanes, bus lanes, etc, etc, is bound to be problematic.

I agree about commercial practices that encourage the use of box-boys to deliver hot meals, and more or less force them through job scheduling to ride illegally-tinkered electric bikes at high speeds through urban areas. The box-boy problem is a symptom of a broader question of modern life; how it's to be solved is quite a big question.

 

[Via Bank]

On the contrary, in this country we are averse to reducing the roadway width adequately and removing through traffic where that isn’t appropriate, and insistent on squeezing masses of cars and lorries through streets designed for horse and cart. We treat too many streets like trunk roads when they’re not.

 

[Meerkat]

The box-boy problem is a symptom of a broader question of modern life; how it's to be solved is quite a big question.

Lawfare. Get someone (or their insurance company) who has been hit by one to sue the company to get a precedent that they have a responsibility, or just change the law and make them responsible.
Could start with enforcing the law. Create a multi agency team that hits a particular town - there will be one area that has most of the takeaways and has riders hanging about - and stop all riders……is bike legal, do moped riders have a licence/insurance, do they have the right to work here, are they paying tax, are they declaring earnings to benefits agency. Then move to the next town. After a couple of months publicise which companies have the most law breakers working for them.

 

[dcbwhaley]

On the contrary, in this country we are averse to reducing the roadway width adequately and removing through traffic where that isn’t appropriate, and insistent on squeezing masses of cars and lorries through streets designed for horse and cart. We treat too many streets like trunk roads when they’re not.

Similarly. When a country road has to pass under a narrow bridge it is the footways that vanish. Rather than making the road under the bridge single lane.

 

[renegademaster]

Lawfare. Get someone (or their insurance company) who has been hit by one to sue the company to get a precedent that they have a responsibility, or just change the law and make them responsible.
Could start with enforcing the law. Create a multi agency team that hits a particular town - there will be one area that has most of the takeaways and has riders hanging about - and stop all riders……is bike legal, do moped riders have a licence/insurance, do they have the right to work here, are they paying tax, are they declaring earnings to benefits agency. Then move to the next town. After a couple of months publicise which companies have the most law breakers working for them.

The way the delivery services are set up, while they do have insurance on the riders for incidents that happen while an order is being delivered, for all other purposes they are independent contractors so you won't be able to hit the companies from them. Given how backlogged the police/HMRC/home office are you will find it hard to do the rest too.

 

[Ghostbus]

I don't think attracting people onto bikes is a particularly useful aim. Walking and public transport is a far more viable way to manage urban transport than bike, and for the most part people walking to their local takeaway or learning to cook is a far better way to manage food distribution.

People have been convinced by some incredibly dodgy stats from the bike lobby that bikes are more space-efficient than buses, but that's a complete nonsense if you spend even 5 minutes working through the figures. We've been told for years that cycling is active travel which will solve the obesity crisis, but the idea of actually powering your own bike is rapidly dying off. There's really not that much to recommend them.

That's total nonsense.

I hadn't ridden a bike since I was a kid. I'd given up owning a private car since it just traps you in a depressing loop where you need to work to run a car, and you (wrongly) assume you're financing that chunk of metal because without it, you can't work. I live in a big city, so compared to most places, buses and rail are pretty decent options for commuting. But with no car, I also started riding a bike again.

I was soon really surprised to realise that even with not much dedicated cycling infrastructure, once I was properly bike fit, I can get to multiple work opportunities faster and far more cheaply than public transport. I don't bat an eyelid at taking work an hour's ride away, the other side of the city. I skirt the city rather than changing buses/trains in the centre. I don't bat an eyelid at weekend leisure trips where previously I was spending an hour on public transport each way, just to get there.

The door to door time is incredible, a major plus point. The only downside is weather, but in all honesty, it doesnt rain in this country nearly as much as people think it does. You realise that once you're on a bike as a lifestyle choice rather than a leisure pursuit. And you soon see how depressing it can be to be changing buses/trains in the cold and dark, where rain only adds to the existing feeling of misery. At least on a bike you're warm from effort, and every single stride is a yard closer to home.

I have never felt fitter or healthier. I ride for leisure and commuting. The first choice, with only distance as the limiting factor. I have even started to go further afield by taking the bike on the train, but I will only do that for leisure. The trains feel like they are far too unreliable/crowded to be used for long distance commuting with a bicycle. But having never done it, maybe I'm wrong?

Buses don't have to compete with cycles. But it would require politicians deciding buses aren't just a way to move poor people the most economical way possible. I love buses. I would take my bike onto a bus, or place it in a bus trailer, in a heartbeat. I'd happily pay a premium for it. Unlike a train, I am totally confident in the buses reliability, and that if the worst happens, unlike the train, I'm confident I can complete the journey with pedal power alone.

Like most people I assume, I cannot fathom why anyone would want to complicate a standard pedal bike with motors and batteries and all that comes with that (expense, storage, safety), when a pedal bike does the job just fine and requires very little maintenance. Fair enough if you're getting older, but otherwise, you're being a fool to yourself in my view.

The benefits extend even into daily life. The speed with which I can do a full shop at the nearest supermarket using only a backpack, the door to door time comparable to a car never mind a bus/walking, actually means I eat junk food less. I've actually gained weight and lost bike fitness, and felt miserable as a result, after taking a driving job which comes with a vehicle I can use to commute. I only do it because I love driving for a living as much as I love cycling for leisure and commuting.

It is therefore incredibly annoying to see such short sighted thinking, banning cycles from perfectly usable streets, from the very people, politicians, who have been banging on about the benefits of cycling over the car, for years, but have otherwise failed to ensure the cycling specific infrastructure both exists and is protected for the exclusive use of cyclists.

The only place where it probably isn't worth cycling for a half hour commute or leisure trip, is ironically the less populated or even rural areas, where inexplicably, politicians expect you to share space with road vehicles, but where buses and trains are far less convenient because the geography is far less conducive to mass transit economics (but could far easily accommodate cycle lanes and even cycles on public transport). No thanks. I only choose not to have a car, I can easily get one of I need one. Don't make me need it by offering me no practical alternative. Walking to a bus or train is not my ideal first choice. It's the third choice, behing the bike and car.

And I haven't even mentioned the benefits to cyclists of owning a car, which I would totally take advantage if, if I actually needed a car to commute.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I don't think attracting people onto bikes is a particularly useful aim. Walking and public transport is a far more viable way to manage urban transport than bike

No, you need all three. TfL built the North-South and East-West cycle superhighways because their projections showed rising demand for cross-town journeys and there was no space (or budget) for another tube line. Walking works for <1mi journeys but most people won't walk five miles for a commute, while buses are constrained to particular routes and usually slower than bikes in cities.

If you are going to do bikes though then it's imperative that the space you take to do it is taken from cars and not from pedestrians or buses.

That much I do agree with.

 

[Meerkat]

The way the delivery services are set up, while they do have insurance on the riders for incidents that happen while an order is being delivered, for all other purposes they are independent contractors so you won't be able to hit the companies from them. Given how backlogged the police/HMRC/home office are you will find it hard to do the rest too.

Don’t see why not if they don’t have procedures to ensure their contractors act legally, and particularly if their ordering system allows/forces contractors to work faster than is legally possible.
They‘re are also competitive so wouldn’t want to be repeatedly publicly castigated as being responsible for more illegality than their rivals.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think attracting people onto bikes is a particularly useful aim. Walking and public transport is a far more viable way to manage urban transport than bike, and for the most part people walking to their local takeaway or learning to cook is a far better way to manage food distribution.

People have been convinced by some incredibly dodgy stats from the bike lobby that bikes are more space-efficient than buses, but that's a complete nonsense if you spend even 5 minutes working through the figures. We've been told for years that cycling is active travel which will solve the obesity crisis, but the idea of actually powering your own bike is rapidly dying off. There's really not that much to recommend them.

If you are going to do bikes though then it's imperative that the space you take to do it is taken from cars and not from pedestrians or buses.

This.
In London (Croydon) The bus network is good enough and walking suffices for the bits off the network. Rail for longer distance. But we now see buses being driven away from Croydon town centre by bike lanes. These bike lanes are very rarely used by bikes. There are far more buses than bikes and each bus has capacity for about seventy people (iirc). Ironically George Street in the centre of Croydon is overrun by bikes - mainly electric. They are on the pavement and also run either way on the one way street !.

The result is that for those who can only walk a short distance central Croydon risks becoming inacessible.

The advantage that cycling has over walking is that it’s significantly quicker, and for certain types of journey this applies over public transport too.

If you take a stereotypical journey from Home Counties to a workplace in London, the bike is likely to offer significant time gains getting from home to station and from station to workplace, as well as offering flexibility. This is of course where folding bikes come into their own. I have used bikes in this way in the past, and the time saving was absolutely immense.

I do agree with the point about food delivery bikes though, they are a complete menace, and their main purpose seems to be to provide dubious employment opportunities.

A bike is OK if you are young and fit. Not all of us are fit enough to ride the distances I would have to. I walk more than an average person but beyond Croydon it is the bus.

I find this hard to believe unless you are assuming every bus is full , which unless it's a school leaving time , is rarely true.

Buses are often near to capacity. Late evenings are the quietest that I notice.

So do not underestimate the uses of buses - in London I once read TfL carry more passengers in buses than travel by rail/tube.

Example Saturday. Bus 119 Bromley to Croydon 19:20 full upstairs and some standing downstairs. We had travelled to Bromley via Victoria on the train from another part of South London as expected the buses to be busy.

If you're judging on current traffic levels then a lot of bike lanes only see about 20-30 bikes an hour. There's several main roads in Edinburgh where there are literally fewer cyclists than there were buses in the lane they converted.

In terms of peak capacity, you'll struggle to get 10 cyclists in a bike lane in the space taken up by a bus in a bus lane. If the bus is a double decker then peak capacity there is more like 100.

Same in Croydon. Buses diverted to make way for empty cycle lanes. The bikes and buses (not cars) could have shared on key roads near central Croydon.

On the contrary, in this country we are averse to reducing the roadway width adequately and removing through traffic where that isn’t appropriate, and insistent on squeezing masses of cars and lorries through streets designed for horse and cart. We treat too many streets like trunk roads when they’re not.

Where are these alternative roads that we need ?. greater London particularly is a very old town and so was not designed to more modern standards. So no use comparing with more modern cities.

Lawfare. Get someone (or their insurance company) who has been hit by one to sue the company to get a precedent that they have a responsibility, or just change the law and make them responsible.
Could start with enforcing the law. Create a multi agency team that hits a particular town - there will be one area that has most of the takeaways and has riders hanging about - and stop all riders……is bike legal, do moped riders have a licence/insurance, do they have the right to work here, are they paying tax, are they declaring earnings to benefits agency. Then move to the next town. After a couple of months publicise which companies have the most law breakers working for them.

I suggest George Street in Croydon. Would be a happy hunting ground for enforcers of legality regarding eBikes and their riders.

As for insurance only applying when they are carrying goods - surely their journey to the collection point counts as part of the effort required to fulfil the contract ?, surely their journey back to home/near-base counts as part of the effort to fulfil the contract ?.

 

[johncrossley]

In London (Croydon) The bus network is good enough and walking suffices for the bits off the network. Rail for longer distance. But we now see buses being driven away from Croydon town centre by bike lanes. These bike lanes are very rarely used by bikes. There are far more buses than bikes and each bus has capacity for about seventy people (iirc). Ironically George Street in the centre of Croydon is overrun by bikes - mainly electric. They are on the pavement and also run either way on the one way street !.

But how comprehensive is the bike network outside the town centre? It is no good if you end up on main roads after leaving the town centre. In the Netherlands, the bike network is nationwide, making buses largely irrelevant for trips under 2 miles or so.

A bike is OK if you are young and fit. Not all of us are fit enough to ride the distances I would have to. I walk more than an average person but beyond Croydon it is the bus.

In the Netherlands, more old people use bikes than people of working age. There are of course electric bikes now so cycling requires less effort than walking.

Buses are often near to capacity

So bikes are useful to relieve pressure off buses and tubes. Lots of people now cycle into central London at peak times which reduces overcrowding.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But how comprehensive is the bike network outside the town centre? It is no good if you end up on main roads after leaving the town centre. In the Netherlands, the bike network is nationwide, making buses largely irrelevant for trips under 2 miles or so.

All the way down to Purley and Northwards to Thornton Heath. With bollards protecting the cycle lanes and thus no one can move out of the way of the emergency services. And no sign of bikes, if there are any then it is too few for me to notice. Congestion is now really bad to the North particularly if any shop is taking a delivery.

In the Netherlands, more old people use bikes than people of working age. There are of course electric bikes now so cycling requires less effort than walking.

Of course the Netherlands is relatively flat......

So bikes are useful to relieve pressure off buses and tubes. Lots of people now cycle into central London at peak times which reduces overcrowding.

More buses would also work.

Always notice the roads and buses are worse when the weather is bad - fair weather road (and pavement) users probably.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the Netherlands, more old people use bikes than people of working age. There are of course electric bikes now so cycling requires less effort than walking.

My grandfather cycled well into old age, assisted by one of those Sinclair add-on motors long before e-bikes were mainstream. E-bikes really do help here, as does the right style of bike - an older rider doesn't want a fast road bike (as inexplicably large numbers of people seem to ride around London for reasons I don't wholly understand - fancy road bikes are great for riding fast along country lanes, but are terrible for potholed cities), they want a comfortable sit-up-and-beg with a nice padded seat and a basket for the shopping.

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Of course the Netherlands is relatively flat......

London is pretty flat too (though there are exceptions). In any case an e-bike takes away the hills.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My grandfather cycled well into old age, assisted by one of those Sinclair add-on motors long before e-bikes were mainstream. E-bikes really do help here, as does the right style of bike - an older rider doesn't want a fast road bike (as inexplicably large numbers of people seem to ride around London for reasons I don't wholly understand - fancy road bikes are great for riding fast along country lanes, but are terrible for potholed cities), they want a comfortable sit-up-and-beg with a nice padded seat and a basket for the shopping.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2024 ==



London is pretty flat too (though there are exceptions). In any case an e-bike takes away the hills.

Decent hills on the 468 route as Crystal Palace is on top of a huge hill overlooking London. Nearer me the 119, 166 and 405 do a lot of climbing. The routes Northwards from Croydon are not dead flat.

 

[johncrossley]

Decent hills on the 468 route as Crystal Palace is on top of a huge hill overlooking London. Nearer me the 119, 166 and 405 do a lot of climbing. The routes Northwards from Croydon are not dead flat.

Electric bikes can easily get up those hills.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electric bikes can easily get up those hills.

Indeed. @Peter Sarf - why not try one out? You could just take a Lime bike for a spin, no need to buy one to try it. If you try it and still don't like it, fair enough, but developing views on e-bikes without (seemingly) ever having ridden one isn't going to give you the full picture.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Indeed. @Peter Sarf - why not try one out? You could just take a Lime bike for a spin, no need to buy one to try it. If you try it and still don't like it, fair enough, but developing views on e-bikes without (seemingly) ever having ridden one isn't going to give you the full picture.

A hire eBike would be the way to try but at the moment my condition means a bus is safer - even if that is what caused the problem !. I would definitely want to invest in some safety gear in case I came off.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

as inexplicably large numbers of people seem to ride around London for reasons I don't wholly understand - fancy road bikes are great for riding fast along country lanes, but are terrible for potholed cities

In London it's often because people in small flats only have the space to keep one bike, so buy one that works for both the weekday commute and the weekend leisure ride.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A hire eBike would be the way to try but at the moment my condition means a bus is safer - even if that is what caused the problem !. I would definitely want to invest in some safety gear in case I came off.

You can get a helmet in Tesco for a tenner or less, or perhaps borrow one? If you do like it and consider buying an e-bike, by the way, be sure to test-ride a selection first - depending on design the different types can feel quite different to ride - not all of them just feel like Lime bikes. As you're in the London area a TfL one is a good way of trying a mid-motored bike with gears, whereas the Lime ones are hub motored.

 

[bramling]

A bike is OK if you are young and fit. Not all of us are fit enough to ride the distances I would have to. I walk more than an average person but beyond Croydon it is the bus.

With the best will in the world many people need to manage their fitness better, and if they did then riding a bike wouldn’t be difficult at all. Indeed cycling is generally more efficient than walking, and apart from on steep hills it can be as physically demanding as one does or doesn’t want it to be.

Age needn’t be an issue either, at my rowing club there’s people well into their 70s and 80s that do significant mileages by bike. And for those that can’t or won’t, nowadays it’s possible to get battery-assisted versions.

 

[Peter Sarf]

With the best will in the world many people need to manage their fitness better, and if they did then riding a bike wouldn’t be difficult at all. Indeed cycling is generally more efficient than walking, and apart from on steep hills it can be as physically demanding as one does or doesn’t want it to be.

Age needn’t be an issue either, at my rowing club there’s people well into their 70s and 80s that do significant mileages by bike. And for those that can’t or won’t, nowadays it’s possible to get battery-assisted versions.

I hope I am keeping my self relatively fit by walking and resorting to the bus where longer distances are involved, then rail. I will walk briskly for 20-30 minutes. That is unless I am specifically out for a walk. A bike would really end up being a commitment to something I have to park securely and manage where I do and do not use it. For instance having to take a bike with me for use at the other end of a bus journey. The bike would have to be instead of the bus (or train) especially if it has a battery.

For someone who lives in a rural location with fewer or no buses a bike or car becomes essential.

 

[bramling]

I hope I am keeping my self relatively fit by walking and resorting to the bus where longer distances are involved, then rail. I will walk briskly for 20-30 minutes. That is unless I am specifically out for a walk. A bike would really end up being a commitment to something I have to park securely and manage where I do and do not use it. For instance having to take a bike with me for use at the other end of a bus journey. The bike would have to be instead of the bus (or train) especially if it has a battery.

The issue of security can be resolved by getting a folding bike. Something like a Brompton rides pretty much as well as an ordinary bike (apart from that they don’t cope well with the very steepest of hills).

People have a funny attitude to bikes though, like for example no one wi bat an eyelid if you take a massive pram into something like a shopping centre, but do it with £5,000 worth of bike and you’ll have security there quicker than that. Funny old world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope I am keeping my self relatively fit by walking and resorting to the bus where longer distances are involved, then rail. I will walk briskly for 20-30 minutes. That is unless I am specifically out for a walk. A bike would really end up being a commitment to something I have to park securely and manage where I do and do not use it. For instance having to take a bike with me for use at the other end of a bus journey.

You live in London, there should be plenty of hire bikes around, TfL, Lime, Dott, Forest and all the others. No need to own one for your destination!

 

[Peter Sarf]

You live in London, there should be plenty of hire bikes around, TfL, Lime, Dott, Forest and all the others. No need to own one for your destination!

I see the hire bikes in London but not around Croydon. But I can walk or bus into central Croydon. I usually walk to.from Croydon unless it is raining or I have something rather heavy/bulky. I definitely walk if it is cold - stay warm by keeping moving.

For other parts of London I see many hire bikes but I suppose a bit like the lottery - I don't "go there" !.

If I could not walk well enough (nearly happened this year) then a bike might be better than the 6 minute walk to the bus stop !.

Would be a whole different ball game if I lived in a less well served area.

 

[Bikeman78]

To be honest I never thought it was allowed to cycle in pedestrianised areas, I always assumed it just (as per many crimes) wasn't really enforced. Though I think in some cases a Redway style cycle path along the middle of such areas (about 2m wide) might make sense.

I think it depends how you go about it. I've been riding along Queen Street for over 20 years. No one has ever questioned it, including several Police officers. It's usually early morning or late evening. There are often a few delivery vehicles and they usually move faster than I do so I don't feel guilty. I wouldn't ride there when the shops are open.

 

[londonbridge]

I suggest George Street in Croydon. Would be a happy hunting ground for enforcers of legality regarding eBikes and their riders.

Absolutely. I’m sick of playing dodge the bikes every time I’m walking along George Street, you see some of them riding alongside the tram line in the wrong direction straight towards an oncoming tram then swerving onto the pavement at the last minute. Trying to cross the road on the corner by Wendy’s I had to sidestep three of them coming straight at me from different sides. And don’t even get me started on them riding on the pavement in the same area where you’ve got people coming in and out of East Croydon station mixed with those using Boxpark.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Absolutely. I’m sick of playing dodge the bikes every time I’m walking along George Street, you see some of them riding alongside the tram line in the wrong direction straight towards an oncoming tram then swerving onto the pavement at the last minute. Trying to cross the road on the corner by Wendy’s I had to sidestep three of them coming straight at me from different sides. And don’t even get me started on them riding on the pavement in the same area where you’ve got people coming in and out of East Croydon station mixed with those using Boxpark.

That (George Street) is my most dangerous area apart from the high speed ones on the pedestrianised North End. They ride all over the tram tracks at East Croydon.