Current state owned bus operators.

[swt class 450]

I just have a question about the current state owned (ie council owned) bus operators.

I thought that the Transport Act 1985 banned the government or any councils from directly operating buses or setting up bus companies. However at the moment there are currently 36 bus operators (many of which are just councils directly operating a few rural bus routes) owned by the government or by councils as follows:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Blackpool Borough Council [Blackpool Transport]
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cardiff City Council [Cardiff Bus]
• Cogenhoe & Wishton Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar [Bus Na Comhairle]
• Dorset County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council [DGC Buses]
• Durham County Council
• East Riding Of Yorkshire Council
• Edinburgh City Council (91%) + East Lothian Council (3%) + Mid Lothian Council (3%) + West Lothian Council (3%) [Lothian Buses + East Coast Buses + Lothian Country Buses]
• Halton Borough Council [Halton Transport] (note that 1% is privately owned)
• Ipswich Borough Council [Ipswich Buses]
• Isle Of Man Government [Bus Vannin]
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• Newport City Council [Newport Bus]
• North Lincolnshire Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Northern Ireland Government [Translink]
• Nottingham City Council [Nottingham City Transport] (note that 18% is privately owned)
• Nottinghamshire County Council [Notts Bus]
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Reading Borough Council [Reading Buses + Connect Henley + Greenline + Greenwave + Kennections + Newbury & District + Thames Valley]
• Redcar & Cleveland Borough Council
• Runnymede Borough Council [Runnymede Borough Transport]
• Scottish Borders Council
• Shetland Islands Council
• Somerset County Council
• South Gloucestershire Council
• Southwold Town Council
• Suffolk County Council [Suffolk Norse] (note that 80% is privately owned)
• University Of Hertfordshire [Uno Buses]
• Warrington Borough Council [Warringtons Own Buses]
• Wolverhampton City Council

So i am just wondering what exactly are the rules about this currently? Is anyone able to clarify the specific rules? Are councils now allowed to operate bus services again? Or is just that they are now allowed to directly operate buses and run routes but they can't set up a separate bus company?

Many thanks.

 

[Arriva Fan]

I just have a question about the current state owned (ie council owned) bus operators.

I thought that the Transport Act 1985 banned the government or any councils from directly operating buses or setting up bus companies. However at the moment there are currently 36 bus operators (many of which are just councils directly operating a few rural bus routes) owned by the government or by councils as follows:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Blackpool Borough Council [Blackpool Transport]
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cardiff City Council [Cardiff Bus]
• Cogenhoe & Wishton Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar [Bus Na Comhairle]
• Dorset County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council [DGC Buses]
• Durham County Council
• East Riding Of Yorkshire Council
• Edinburgh City Council (91%) + East Lothian Council (3%) + Mid Lothian Council (3%) + West Lothian Council (3%) [Lothian Buses + East Coast Buses + Lothian Country Buses]
• Halton Borough Council [Halton Transport] (note that 1% is privately owned)
• Ipswich Borough Council [Ipswich Buses]
• Isle Of Man Government [Bus Vannin]
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• Newport City Council [Newport Bus]
• North Lincolnshire Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Northern Ireland Government [Translink]
• Nottingham City Council [Nottingham City Transport] (note that 18% is privately owned)
• Nottinghamshire County Council [Notts Bus]
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Reading Borough Council [Reading Buses + Connect Henley + Greenline + Greenwave + Kennections + Newbury & District + Thames Valley]
• Redcar & Cleveland Borough Council
• Runnymede Borough Council [Runnymede Borough Transport]
• Scottish Borders Council
• Shetland Islands Council
• Somerset County Council
• South Gloucestershire Council
• Southwold Town Council
• Suffolk County Council [Suffolk Norse] (note that 80% is privately owned)
• University Of Hertfordshire [Uno Buses]
• Warrington Borough Council [Warringtons Own Buses]
• Wolverhampton City Council

So i am just wondering what exactly are the rules about this currently? Is anyone able to clarify the specific rules? Are councils now allowed to operate bus services again? Or is just that they are now allowed to directly operate buses and run routes but they can't set up a separate bus company?

Many thanks.

I can't understand why Bus Vannin is on this list?

The Isle of Man is an independent nation, so the Transport Act 1985 doesn't apply to Mann, so our Nationalised Bus Service is completely different to any state run uk operator.

 

[overthewater]

Also none of these are state run. Its arms lenght which just so happens the local council owns.

Also when did west lothian council get 3% in lothian? It looks like you pluck the firgue out of the sky.

 

[carlberry]

I just have a question about the current state owned (ie council owned) bus operators.

I thought that the Transport Act 1985 banned the government or any councils from directly operating buses or setting up bus companies. However at the moment there are currently 36 bus operators (many of which are just councils directly operating a few rural bus routes) owned by the government or by councils as follows:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Blackpool Borough Council [Blackpool Transport]
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cardiff City Council [Cardiff Bus]
• Cogenhoe & Wishton Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar [Bus Na Comhairle]
• Dorset County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council [DGC Buses]
• Durham County Council
• East Riding Of Yorkshire Council
• Edinburgh City Council (91%) + East Lothian Council (3%) + Mid Lothian Council (3%) + West Lothian Council (3%) [Lothian Buses + East Coast Buses + Lothian Country Buses]
• Halton Borough Council [Halton Transport] (note that 1% is privately owned)
• Ipswich Borough Council [Ipswich Buses]
• Isle Of Man Government [Bus Vannin]
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• Newport City Council [Newport Bus]
• North Lincolnshire Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Northern Ireland Government [Translink]
• Nottingham City Council [Nottingham City Transport] (note that 18% is privately owned)
• Nottinghamshire County Council [Notts Bus]
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Reading Borough Council [Reading Buses + Connect Henley + Greenline + Greenwave + Kennections + Newbury & District + Thames Valley]
• Redcar & Cleveland Borough Council
• Runnymede Borough Council [Runnymede Borough Transport]
• Scottish Borders Council
• Shetland Islands Council
• Somerset County Council
• South Gloucestershire Council
• Southwold Town Council
• Suffolk County Council [Suffolk Norse] (note that 80% is privately owned)
• University Of Hertfordshire [Uno Buses]
• Warrington Borough Council [Warringtons Own Buses]
• Wolverhampton City Council

So i am just wondering what exactly are the rules about this currently? Is anyone able to clarify the specific rules? Are councils now allowed to operate bus services again? Or is just that they are now allowed to directly operate buses and run routes but they can't set up a separate bus company?

Many thanks.

The act dosent apply in Northern Ireland and the existing operators (Cardiff, Newport etc above) had to run at arms length so are not directly operated. I'm not sure University of Hertfordshire counts as state run. In theory all of the Arriva companies are state run as well. The rest are a grey area, some of which register services and some of which dont!

 

[carlberry]

Also none of these are state run. Its arms lenght which just so happens the local council owns.

Also when did west lothian council get 3% in lothian? It looks like you pluck the firgue out of the sky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lothian_Buses

 

[MedwayValiant]

I'm not sure University of Hertfordshire counts as state run.

The point can be argued either way. uno is a trading name of Universitybus Limited, a company wholly owned by UH Holdings Limited. The directors of Universitybus Limited are "bus people", while the directors of UH Holdings Limited are professors and suchlike. UH Holdings Limited is in turn a company wholly owned by the University of Hertfordshire, a Higher Education Institution within the meaning of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (as amended).

Higher Education Institutions are not companies in the way that we normally understand that word, but neither are they part of the civil service. Their employees work under public sector-type pay and conditions, and they are bound by things like the Freedom of Information Act which ordinary companies owned by shareholders aren't. The University of Hertfordshire cannot change its constitution without the Privy Council's permission, and about 10% of its revenue comes as a block grant from the Department for Education.

While the legalities are a bit different, uno is not actually all that different from a bus company owned at arms length by a local authority. I suppose I should declare a vague interest, and say that I used to work for the University of Hertfordshire (in the university offices, not for uno).

 

[oldman]

Lothian shares are owned as follows:

Edinburgh 91.01%
Midlothian 5.47%
East Lothian 3.12%
West Lothian 0.40%

This was based on something (?bus mileage) at the time Lothian Region was abolished.

 

[borage]

• Suffolk County Council [Suffolk Norse] (note that 80% is privately owned)

I *think* the 80% owned by Norse Commercial Services is ultimately owned by Norfolk County Council

 

[Typhoon]

According to Professor Nick Petford, Vice Chancellor of Northampton University on The Bottom Line (R4, 07/03/19 - 01:45 into the broadcast, accessible via BBC website), his and all other publicly funded Universities are not-for-profit businesses according to the Office of National Statistics. This may be convenient for the Exchequer but if this is their legal status, they cannot be counted as state run.

 

[overthewater]

• Edinburgh City Council (91%) + East Lothian Council (3%) + Mid Lothian Council (3%) + West Lothian Council (3%) [Lothian Buses + East Coast Buses + Lothian Country Buses]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lothian_Buses

Both have failed to correctly give a ref or the correct details.

Lothian shares are owned as follows:

Edinburgh 91.01%
Midlothian 5.47%
East Lothian 3.12%
West Lothian 0.40%

This was based on something (?bus mileage) at the time Lothian Region was abolished.

Your goodself has at least come at lot closer to the truth., it must have changed around the time of the trams.

Transport for Edinburgh (91%)
Midlothian Council (5%)
East Lothian Council (3%)
West Lothian Council (1%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothian_Buses There is two refs to back it

 

[Man of Kent]

I just have a question about the current state owned (ie council owned) bus operators.

I thought that the Transport Act 1985 banned the government or any councils from directly operating buses or setting up bus companies. However at the moment there are currently 36 bus operators (many of which are just councils directly operating a few rural bus routes) owned by the government or by councils as follows:

• Bath & North East Somerset Council
• Beaminster Town Council
• Blackpool Borough Council [Blackpool Transport]
• Caerphilly County Borough Council
• Cardiff City Council [Cardiff Bus]
• Cogenhoe & Wishton Parish Council
• Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar [Bus Na Comhairle]
• Dorset County Council
• Dumfries & Galloway Council [DGC Buses]
• Durham County Council
• East Riding Of Yorkshire Council
• Edinburgh City Council (91%) + East Lothian Council (3%) + Mid Lothian Council (3%) + West Lothian Council (3%) [Lothian Buses + East Coast Buses + Lothian Country Buses]
• Halton Borough Council [Halton Transport] (note that 1% is privately owned)
• Ipswich Borough Council [Ipswich Buses]
• Isle Of Man Government [Bus Vannin]
• Monmouthshire County Council
• Moray Council
• Newport City Council [Newport Bus]
• North Lincolnshire Council
• North Yorkshire County Council
• Northern Ireland Government [Translink]
• Nottingham City Council [Nottingham City Transport] (note that 18% is privately owned)
• Nottinghamshire County Council [Notts Bus]
• Pembrokeshire County Council
• Reading Borough Council [Reading Buses + Connect Henley + Greenline + Greenwave + Kennections + Newbury & District + Thames Valley]
• Redcar & Cleveland Borough Council
• Runnymede Borough Council [Runnymede Borough Transport]
• Scottish Borders Council
• Shetland Islands Council
• Somerset County Council
• South Gloucestershire Council
• Southwold Town Council
• Suffolk County Council [Suffolk Norse] (note that 80% is privately owned)
• University Of Hertfordshire [Uno Buses]
• Warrington Borough Council [Warringtons Own Buses]
• Wolverhampton City Council

So i am just wondering what exactly are the rules about this currently? Is anyone able to clarify the specific rules? Are councils now allowed to operate bus services again? Or is just that they are now allowed to directly operate buses and run routes but they can't set up a separate bus company?

Many thanks.

The Transport Act 1985 banned district councils from owning a bus operator, if they did not already do so. The Act never envisioned that county councils might become operators, while local government reorganisation has meant there are a large number of councils that have become unitaries, and so also not bound by the 1985 Act.
Runnymede BC appears to be the only one on the list that is a district council and did not pre-own an operator, but as it doesn't appear to have a PSV operator's licence, then I suggest its inclusion is confusing. However, that does not preclude it from possibly holding a section 19 or 22 permit, the basis on which most of the town/parish councils listed.
A quick search of the DVSA website also reveals PSV O licences held by Coventry City Council and Wiltshire (unitary) Council amongst others. Dorset CC disappears in the next few weeks, and the two successor councils - Bournemouth, Christchurch & Poole Council and Dorset Council - both have applications in for new O licences.

 

[mark-h]

Lothian shares are owned as follows:

Edinburgh 91.01%
Midlothian 5.47%
East Lothian 3.12%ownership
West Lothian 0.40%

These are the correct percentages (rounded to 2 decimal places) according to the last annual statement submitted to Companies House (attached) however Edinburgh Council has transferred its ownership to "Transport for Edinburgh" in which they are the sole shareholder.

 

[oldman]

Your goodself has at least come at lot closer to the truth., it must have changed around the time of the trams.

My exceedingly goodself got it right, not closer to the truth, right. See this Midlothian Council document

 

[overthewater]

5 stars to your good self then!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Arriva?

(Can I claim my £5 now?)

 

[175mph]

Arriva?

(Can I claim my £5 now?)

I think they mean state owned as in the UK.

 

[Roilshead]

The point can be argued either way. uno is a trading name of Universitybus Limited, a company wholly owned by UH Holdings Limited. The directors of Universitybus Limited are "bus people", while the directors of UH Holdings Limited are professors and suchlike. UH Holdings Limited is in turn a company wholly owned by the University of Hertfordshire, a Higher Education Institution within the meaning of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (as amended).

No it can't , as Typhoon stated - and as I posted on another thread - Universities are independent charitable organisations.

 

[WatcherZero]

To go back to the original OP question, the act banned them setting up new companies, the remaining council owned ones are legacy operations. Those particular councils didn't sell them to raise money for other investment projects.

Westminster has also from time to time lent on councils saying they have to match public grants for projects and pointing out they have a nice valuable asset (not just bus companies but other public owned commercial investments) they could sell to raise capital.