Could we ever see the Caledonian Sleeper calling at Birmingham New Street?

[plymothian]

With the renaissance of rail travel, would more sleeper routes - possibly by a standalone TOC - be profitable? Wonder if an Open Access TOC could run several sleeper services across the country - the only objections would be FGW and SR at that time of night. Even then the Night Riviera could be removed from the greater western franchise.

NightRail anyone?

 

[anthony263]

Would an open acess sleeper service, actually be profitable though?

I personally agree that there should be a sleeper from the south west or wales to scotland, Penzance -Birmingham - Aberdeen anyone?

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

There's quite a few stored Mk3 sleeper coaches at Long Marston that I saw on Sunday at their fantastic open day. Most are still carrying Intercity livery and the details regarding maintenance on the coach ends suggested that they last had any kind of major work in the early 90's.

At the open day last year, a mate and I did manage to have a quick look inside one and found a couple of Intercity Highland Sleeper leaflets. The interiors, especially the coach ends were in a pretty sorry state, although the cabins/berths themselves weren't too bad. Don't get me wrong, you couldn't sleep in it straight away (all the mattresses are removed and they're shabby and dirty) but nothing that a few quid couldn't sort.

But saying that, it did seem pretty clear that the "underneath" had been robbed pretty heavily for parts, and unfortunately, that goes for most locos and coaches there.

I did have a few photos on my fotopic site of the inside of one, but I've not got round to putting it on Flickr yet. If anyone is interested, I'll upload them when I get in from work later.

 

[rail-britain]

There's quite a few stored Mk3 sleeper coaches at Long Marston that I saw on Sunday at their fantastic open day

ScotRail had previously cannibalised one such sleeper, apparently it was the only one with bogies in acceptable condition, it was moved complete and stripped in Inverness (and has since had the bodyshell scrapped)
The main issue with the remaining stored sleepers will be their general condition and bogies
It will take more than just a few quid to get them operational, the majority of the serviceable components will have been removed by Porterbrook or other operators of the sleepers

 

[jamesontheroad]

What is the expected end of operational life for the current Mk. 3 fleet? Given that there aren't really any "spare" carriages beyond the fleets currently in service, I would imagine there would be no opportunity to campaign for additional routes and services until a decision is made about ordering new sleeper rolling stock.

I imagine that this would be an uphill struggle. The BR Mk. 3's were designed, engineered and built in Britain as part of a much bigger rolling stock manufacturing programme. Ordering fleet of new sleeper carriages today for the UK would probably be a very expensive affair.

 

[mallard]

I imagine that this would be an uphill struggle. The BR Mk. 3's were designed, engineered and built in Britain as part of a much bigger rolling stock manufacturing programme. Ordering fleet of new sleeper carriages today for the UK would probably be a very expensive affair.

The Nightstar carriages were built without much of a "programme" around them (even the business case was somewhat sketchy, as time has shown!), so I wouldn't say it's impossible, or even unprecedented. Maybe Alstrom could just build some more, with better power consumption figures!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I don't think any DB night services use high speed lines, and they generally travel at low speeds, but they can go like the clappers (up to 200km/h) if need be.

 

[Yew]

The Nightstar carriages were built without much of a "programme" around them (even the business case was somewhat sketchy, as time has shown!), so I wouldn't say it's impossible, or even unprecedented. Maybe Alstrom could just build some more, with better power consumption figures!

Could they just choose a nice Intercity EMU/DMU, and not put the engines in? (although modern trains do seem to ride harder than BR era trains

 

[mallard]

Could they just choose a nice Intercity EMU/DMU, and not put the engines in? (although modern trains do seem to ride harder than BR era trains

Well, I have always though that the Pendolino window arrangement is more suited to a sleeper than a "day train"!

 

[the sniper]

Would an open acess sleeper service, actually be profitable though?

It'd probably make no more of a loss than some of the Open Access operators running during the day do... I very much doubt it'd be possible to do it profitably though. I'm sure the existing sleeper routes run at a loss, but I'd be glad to hear otherwise.

I did have a few photos on my fotopic site of the inside of one, but I've not got round to putting it on Flickr yet. If anyone is interested, I'll upload them when I get in from work later.

I'd like to see the interiors if it's not too much of a hassle. I've already had a look at the exterior shots on your page. Thanks.

 

[anthony263]

It'd probably make no more of a loss than some of the Open Access operators running during the day do... I very much doubt it'd be possible to do it profitably though. I'm sure the existing sleeper routes run at a loss, but I'd be glad to hear otherwise.



I'd like to see the interiors if it's not too much of a hassle. I've already had a look at the exterior shots on your page. Thanks.

I am not to sure about the fgw sleeper but consideirng how passengers have risen sharply on that service i suspect it is breaking even

I think some new sleeper carriages would have to be ordered, people in the south west wont be happy if the sleeper is withdrawn, i remember the last time there was rumours that the sleeper could be withdrawn

 

[IanXC]

I am not to sure about the fgw sleeper but consideirng how passengers have risen sharply on that service i suspect it is breaking even

I think some new sleeper carriages would have to be ordered, people in the south west wont be happy if the sleeper is withdrawn, i remember the last time there was rumours that the sleeper could be withdrawn

Thats was my feeling what I was on it. The service had clearly been examined as an overall package, so I'd be very surprised if FGW did not ensure it had a realistic breakeven point.

I think the cost of new stock is likely to be prohibitive for the Night Riviera, but the Scottish sleepers are so politically sensitive that I think design work for that is likely to be subsidised by the Scottish Government, which would allow for a tag on order for FGW. In addition given the inclusion of some Mk2 stock and the longer routes the ScotRail stock is likely to need replacing first.

 

[Greenback]

I would hope that any new night stock will include sleeper seats/couchettes for standard class and a more traditional cabin for first class.

 

[tbtc]

I think some new sleeper carriages would have to be ordered, people in the south west wont be happy if the sleeper is withdrawn, i remember the last time there was rumours that the sleeper could be withdrawn

People will complain about the (threatened) withdrawal of a service, but not enough to actually use it.

Realistically, if we can't justify new DMUs on crowded commuter routes that have consistently high passenger numbers six days a week (and could be ordered in large numbers, so some economies of scale)...

...then it'll be very hard to justify a new build of a dozen (or so) sleeper carriages which will be used on up to six journeys a week, especially on such a service.

 

[Greenback]

New DMU's can certainly be justified...it's just that there haven't been any orders!

 

[mallard]

I would hope that any new night stock will include sleeper seats/couchettes for standard class and a more traditional cabin for first class.

So you want them to downgrade standard accommodation so they can charge extra for the current level of comfort?

Note that the Night Rivera is entirely standard class (although it's all clearly to first class standards)!

 

[Greenback]

So you want them to downgrade standard accommodation so they can charge extra for the current level of comfort?

Note that the Night Rivera is entirely standard class (although it's all clearly to first class standards)!

That's one way of looking at it I suppose!

My view is that revamping the sleeper package might be the only way to save the services when the stock is due for renewal.

 

[ainsworth74]

My view is that revamping the sleeper package might be the only way to save the services when the stock is due for renewal.

Not sure FGWs package needs any revamping as the the current one seems to be generating plenty of business!

 

[Greenback]

Not sure FGWs package needs any revamping as the the current one seems to be generating plenty of business!

Revenue is the real key, though. If FGW are actually making money on the service, then that is a good sign for the future! They are expensive traisn to run though.

I'd like to see more overnight services, but I think they might only be cost effective if there is a rethink about the offering. Id o think that the concept needs to move away from a hotel on wheels and more towards what the airlines offer.

This is quite unusual for me - I normally resist any attempts for rail to follow the example of air travel!

 

[Essexman]

I'm very happy with the sleepers as they are but when the time comes for new stock think it should include showers - either at end of carriage or in some premium cabins. The German sleepers have both and are excellent.