Could the Sutton loop become an extension of the District Line?

[Peter Mugridge]

Alternatively... keep the Thameslink services running round the loop and make the TfL proposal a traim* rather than a tram service and run it in the gaps between loop services... that way you can get the extra frequency while still maintaining the through services and avoiding overloading Sutton because only the Thameslink services would be running into the station itself.


*Yes, I know it's taken 10+ years to get them running in Sheffield, but I would rather expect that lessons will have been learned and that other such schemes would be relatively quick to set up...

 

[LLivery]

As a quick answer from memory, I don’t think so. There’ve been a few changes to the SWT/SWR destinations, eg removal of Twickenham, but I don’t think Sutton (or anything Thameslink or Southern) ever got mentioned. It’s almost as though it was Ex Waterloo routes or nothing...

Which also reminds me that all that Crossrail consultation about the interchanges with the northern line a year or so back seem to have gone very quiet...

XR2 has gone a bit quiet. Whilst their twitter page is reasonably active (mainly retweets) the latest news page on their website hasn't been updated since May. The infrastructure debate has become quite anti-London recently, even with HS2. Although we in London will apparently pay for half of the project ourselves, that's still ~£15bn of government money because yet again, it is incredibly expensive. No matter how good the BCR is, I think no government wants to give the go ahead unless London can demonstrate that we'll pay for more of it because the Midlands and North won't like it. Also, TfL is in financial crisis and XR1 is late and over budget. At the moment, the only way I can see XR2 going ahead is if a big northern project is approved first and/or XR2 is done in phases. Infra spending must rise everywhere.

Yes, I guess the problem is, Sutton couldn't cope with all those trains terminating and then laying over in the platforms, and no room there to build more platforms.

Hmmm.... putting crayonista hat on... Have the Thameslink trains run through to Epsom, replacing the 2tph Epsom-Sutton-Croydon-London, which would be curtailed to terminate at Sutton, in the Epsom Downs platforms (or if necessary, build a siding beyond those platforms for those trains to turn around). That removes all the conflicting moves just East of Sutton. Build a siding east of Sutton on the Mitcham line for the CR2 trains to turn around in. And I think you've solved all the problems at Sutton, other than that a more frequent Wimbledon-Sutton service means more conflicting moves where the lines to Wimbledon and Epsom split (balanced by no conflicting moves east of Sutton).

The same solution would work for the OP's proposal of a District line extension, with the difference that a CR2 extension would be more useful, and may be easier to build at the Wimbledon end.

I'm sure someone will tell me there's some big problems I haven't thought of though.

I actually suggested it in the consultation but I don't think it ever got a response. It's unfortunate Sutton wasn't built as 6 platforms and is a problem for terminating trains from the west, but there is a lot of space for a siding just after the junction on the Wallington route. The main issue really is the junction. That said, I would just like to see the Southern London Bridge services run all day.

Another idea would be to make the siding just north of Wimbledon usable and extend a Southern Sutton terminator from the Croydon route up to Wimbledon. Advertise a higher frequency so people would just change for SWR into Waterloo or the District Line.

Alternatively... keep the Thameslink services running round the loop and make the TfL proposal a traim* rather than a tram service and run it in the gaps between loop services... that way you can get the extra frequency while still maintaining the through services and avoiding overloading Sutton because only the Thameslink services would be running into the station itself.


*Yes, I know it's taken 10+ years to get them running in Sheffield, but I would rather expect that lessons will have been learned and that other such schemes would be relatively quick to set up...

I bet TfL wouldn't like it for some reason...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I bet TfL wouldn't like it for some reason...

Indeed they wouldn't, but one could argue that the consultation is to establish what is in the best interests of passengers and local residents, not that of TfL...

Regarding the other two options on the table - I'd say they should do both, but connect them at the top along Merton High Street to create a through loop for the trams.

 

[Aictos]

Extending the Southern Sutton services round to Wimbledon would be good as they can use the two? sidings just north of the station to turnaround.

As to running the Southern loop services all day, again if you could fit them at Sutton between XX:49 and XX:14 then well done however would you operate them as London Bridge to London Bridge via Wimbledon/Sutton OR run them as London Bridge to London BlackfrIars via Wimbledon/Sutton?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Extending the Southern Sutton services round to Wimbledon would be good as they can use the two? sidings just north of the station to turnaround.

As to running the Southern loop services all day, again if you could fit them at Sutton between XX:49 and XX:14 then well done however would you operate them as London Bridge to London Bridge via Wimbledon/Sutton OR run them as London Bridge to London BlackfrIars via Wimbledon/Sutton?

I suspect those sidings (Wimbledon West Yard) , play a part in Crossrail 2.....

 

[LLivery]

Extending the Southern Sutton services round to Wimbledon would be good as they can use the two? sidings just north of the station to turnaround.

As to running the Southern loop services all day, again if you could fit them at Sutton between XX:49 and XX:14 then well done however would you operate them as London Bridge to London Bridge via Wimbledon/Sutton OR run them as London Bridge to London BlackfrIars via Wimbledon/Sutton?

I'd say London Bridge loop - good connectivity and avoiding Herne Hill junctions. But I can understand the merit in "turn up and go" frequency into Blackfriars - people always know where to go.

 

[LLivery]

Indeed they wouldn't, but one could argue that the consultation is to establish what is in the best interests of passengers and local residents, not that of TfL...

You'd hope that, but considering TfL won't put the Thameslink core on the tube map but, will put Trams on there as if anyone looks at the tube map in New Addington or Beckenham for Trams, as well as other things they do, I often don't have much faith in their "best interests for passengers"...

 

[swt_passenger]

As to running the Southern loop services all day, again if you could fit them at Sutton between XX:49 and XX:14 then well done however would you operate them as London Bridge to London Bridge via Wimbledon/Sutton OR run them as London Bridge to London BlackfrIars via Wimbledon/Sutton?

The latter. It is already planned, I linked to the consultation report with the details the other day in a different discussion. It’s metro routes SN3.11 and SN3.12 in the list:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...le-from-may-20th.164547/page-167#post-3696833

 

[30907]

I suspect those sidings (Wimbledon West Yard) , play a part in Crossrail 2.....

Think the reference is to the (disused?)sidings on the London side of the station, also accessed from the Down Main Slow, which historically were used to berth W and S trains.

 

[Aictos]

Think the reference is to the (disused?)sidings on the London side of the station, also accessed from the Down Main Slow, which historically were used to berth W and S trains.

Yup the very same ones, could they not be brought back into use?

 

[swt_passenger]

Yup the very same ones, could they not be brought back into use?

The Crossrail 2 depot and its approach will probably go between the SW and Thameslink lines at the up end of Wimbledon. I don’t think those sidings have a long term future.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Think the reference is to the (disused?)sidings on the London side of the station, also accessed from the Down Main Slow, which historically were used to berth W and S trains.

Long out of use , and I mean the late 1980's. In any case a haunt of grafitti vandals when in use.