• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Could Southern go into Waterloo?

Status
Not open for further replies.

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,241
On the Waterloo (or to be precise Waterloo International) front, I think there is a good chance that Southeastern could reach there via the flyover, since it would be a useful diversion while they rebuild London Bridge. Capacity through Brixton might present a problem, but if International absorbed the Charing Cross traffic for a while, that would give time to connect up the new viaducts. Charing Cross could then absorb the Cannon Street traffic while they rearrange the approach routes for the northern London Bridge platforms, then it would get back to normal when they finish.

You say yourself capacity through Brixton might be a problem, which is why NR don't see it as a workable solution intheir published reports. In any case, if they build or rebuild the platforms at London Bridge in the obvious sequence, ie the three new through platforms first, there is no particular reason why maintaining a route into Cannon St should be a problem. The major impact in the approaches is building the diveunder to take the Southeastern Charing Cross lines under the Thameslink route, the eventual platforms 1,2 and 3 remain on the Cannon St route although rebuilt.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
What a load of nonsense. :roll: Just how many trains an hour do you think are going to be switching from Kings Cross into St. Pancras?! No East Coast services, and a couple of FCC's an hour each way most likely. I doubt that's likely to take away nearly 30m passengers a year funnily enough.

As for your comment about East Coast, what on earth are you on about?! They aren't some little branch line open access 1 service a day TOC, if they were, do you really think the news would have made such a fun and dance about all the chaos this week? Do please explain how they're an insignificant flow?

Don't bother, he won't debate why the ECML is a insignificant flow other then repeating saying the ECML is a insignificant flow which doesn't make any sense at all!
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,964
Location
Surrey
I don't think Southern should go into Waterloo as currently it is a very easy connection at Clapham Junction anyway.

What Southern really needs is a rebuild of East Croydon - making 6 through lines from Windmill Junction to Purley, with maybe some extra terminating platforms at East Croydon.

East Croydon is already a six platform station but as one platform is used to terminate it means a constantly changing arrangement depending on time of day.

If i had six tracks either side it could be sensibly used as follows: -

Platforms 1/2 - all through trains to Gatwick and South Coast

Platforms 3/4 - All trains to Redhill loop and Tattenham/Caterham

Platforms 5/6 - all through trains East Grinstead/Oxted - making the stoppers to London (slow line trains) go to these destinations or creating a new turn back South of Croydon at say Sanderstead. (or alternatively rebuild 5/6 with terminating platform bays at northern end)

Windmill Junction is already well spaced to adjust approaches (i.e. lots of land) and it's would be about creating flyover's to get the main lines away from the slow and crossing other lines - most slow lines from London trains would go to Platforms 5/6 or West Croydon as they do now so it is about splitting the traffic from platforms 1/2 and 3/4 - the line from Windmill to East Croydon is 5 track now and needs to be extended to 6 track - which would affect a few Bridges and some railway sidings.

South of East Croydon it would need to create a sixth track to South Croydon which will be difficult with the cutting but not impossible or massively expensive (perhaps taking a bit off each side and then realignment.

Just an idea but East Croydon is Southern's problem rather than terminating points in London
 

pendolino

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2010
Messages
737
I don't think Southern should go into Waterloo as currently it is a very easy connection at Clapham Junction anyway.

What Southern really needs is a rebuild of East Croydon - making 6 through lines from Windmill Junction to Purley, with maybe some extra terminating platforms at East Croydon.

East Croydon is already a six platform station but as one platform is used to terminate it means a constantly changing arrangement depending on time of day.

If i had six tracks either side it could be sensibly used as follows: -

Platforms 1/2 - all through trains to Gatwick and South Coast

Platforms 3/4 - All trains to Redhill loop and Tattenham/Caterham

Platforms 5/6 - all through trains East Grinstead/Oxted - making the stoppers to London (slow line trains) go to these destinations or creating a new turn back South of Croydon at say Sanderstead. (or alternatively rebuild 5/6 with terminating platform bays at northern end)

Windmill Junction is already well spaced to adjust approaches (i.e. lots of land) and it's would be about creating flyover's to get the main lines away from the slow and crossing other lines - most slow lines from London trains would go to Platforms 5/6 or West Croydon as they do now so it is about splitting the traffic from platforms 1/2 and 3/4 - the line from Windmill to East Croydon is 5 track now and needs to be extended to 6 track - which would affect a few Bridges and some railway sidings.

South of East Croydon it would need to create a sixth track to South Croydon which will be difficult with the cutting but not impossible or massively expensive (perhaps taking a bit off each side and then realignment.

Just an idea but East Croydon is Southern's problem rather than terminating points in London

Besides the fact that what you're suggesting being pretty much happens anyway (apart from the suggestion that Caterham/Tattenham services run via plat 3/4 which would require them to cross to other lines to continue southwards - as it is, running via plat 5 or 6 allows direct access to down slow or reversible), I'm not sure what would be achieved? As you say there are already 5 lines between Windmill Bridge & South Croydon - one of which is reversible (slow reversible to the south, fast reversible to the north) which is akin to having 6 any way.

The only service that terminates regularly at E Croydon during the day is that from Milton Keynes, but it's only there for 15 minutes or so anyway. Even so, there is a turnback being commissioned at S Croydon for Milton Keynes services to terminate there.

E2A: I can't see that widening the cutting south of E Croydon would ever happen because it would be massively expensive, not because of the civil engineering involved but because of the cost and uses of the land either side - offices, Court buildings etc.
 
Last edited:

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
Stand on Hitchin station for an hour and explain why there are six expresses heading south and six heading north (EC/HT/GC) all full

In fairness (as someone who lives in Yorkshire), the ECML services to/from places north of Peterborough are generally four "nine coach" services an hour and one "five coach" service.

Forty one coaches an hour (including First Class/ Restaurant/ Buffet Car) may well have fewer passengers than four twelve-coach services through south London.

Its lies, damned lies and statistics. The ECML passengers are more significant in terms of distance than frequency of service, if we are comparing KX to the likes of Canon Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think Southern should go into Waterloo as currently it is a very easy connection at Clapham Junction anyway.

What Southern really needs is a rebuild of East Croydon - making 6 through lines from Windmill Junction to Purley, with maybe some extra terminating platforms at East Croydon.

East Croydon is already a six platform station but as one platform is used to terminate it means a constantly changing arrangement depending on time of day.

If i had six tracks either side it could be sensibly used as follows: -

Platforms 1/2 - all through trains to Gatwick and South Coast

Platforms 3/4 - All trains to Redhill loop and Tattenham/Caterham

Platforms 5/6 - all through trains East Grinstead/Oxted - making the stoppers to London (slow line trains) go to these destinations or creating a new turn back South of Croydon at say Sanderstead. (or alternatively rebuild 5/6 with terminating platform bays at northern end)

Windmill Junction is already well spaced to adjust approaches (i.e. lots of land) and it's would be about creating flyover's to get the main lines away from the slow and crossing other lines - most slow lines from London trains would go to Platforms 5/6 or West Croydon as they do now so it is about splitting the traffic from platforms 1/2 and 3/4 - the line from Windmill to East Croydon is 5 track now and needs to be extended to 6 track - which would affect a few Bridges and some railway sidings.

South of East Croydon it would need to create a sixth track to South Croydon which will be difficult with the cutting but not impossible or massively expensive (perhaps taking a bit off each side and then realignment.

Just an idea but East Croydon is Southern's problem rather than terminating points in London

Interesting idea.

In an ideal world I'd split services out so that certain places in Surrey/ Sussex/ Kent (etc) only had a service to one London terminal, and connections were available at East Croydon/ Clapham etc. A lot of the tangle of Southern Region services is because places retain a link to both Victoria and London Bridge (/ Canon Street/ Charing Cross)...
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,241
What a load of nonsense. :roll: Just how many trains an hour do you think are going to be switching from Kings Cross into St. Pancras?! No East Coast services, and a couple of FCC's an hour each way most likely. I doubt that's likely to take away nearly 30m passengers a year funnily enough.

Eight tph from the GN transfer to Thameslink, according to both the ECML RUS, and the recently published South East RUS. So somewhat more than 'a couple'...

The latter publication lists the services to be transferred:

8 tph peak from the GN 'Outers' to Thameslink:

Welwyn Garden City (ECML) - four x 8 car
Peterborough (ECML) - two x 12 car
Cambridge (ECML) - two x 12 car

6 tph peak remaining from GN 'Outers' into Kings Cross:

Cambridge via Welwyn Garden City - two x 8 car Cl 365
Peterborough fast - two x 12 car Cl 365
Ely/Kings Lynn fast - two x 8 car Cl 365
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,290
What will happen with the spare 365s? 3rd rail refitted?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,241
What will happen with the spare 365s? 3rd rail refitted?

No idea - I'd imagine the KX services will be left with only 365s, and maybe they'll get rid of all the 321s and 317s? Other than that it's all a bit far into the future...
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,964
Location
Surrey
Besides the fact that what you're suggesting being pretty much happens anyway (apart from the suggestion that Caterham/Tattenham services run via plat 3/4 which would require them to cross to other lines to continue southwards - as it is, running via plat 5 or 6 allows direct access to down slow or reversible), I'm not sure what would be achieved? As you say there are already 5 lines between Windmill Bridge & South Croydon - one of which is reversible (slow reversible to the south, fast reversible to the north) which is akin to having 6 any way.

The only service that terminates regularly at E Croydon during the day is that from Milton Keynes, but it's only there for 15 minutes or so anyway. Even so, there is a turnback being commissioned at S Croydon for Milton Keynes services to terminate there.

E2A: I can't see that widening the cutting south of E Croydon would ever happen because it would be massively expensive, not because of the civil engineering involved but because of the cost and uses of the land either side - offices, Court buildings etc.

No - that is not what happens now

Currently

Platform 1 - London Bound fast

Platform 2 - Either London Fast or Coast bound Fast

Platform 3 - Coast bound fast

Platform 4 - London bound Slow - plus fast services from slow lines

Platform 5 - Terminators/ London Slows / Southbound slow

Platform 6 - Southbound slow

In the peak hour Redhill services leave from platforms 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 - very confusing and complex - in fact the whole system is too complex at East Croydon as Passengers often have to run the large distances between platforms because there is no logic - but also that must be a nightmare to signal through for the signalmen which is why I suggested a simpler system. A lot less trains crossing over each other and thus should run smoother.

As for extending the cutting south - yes there are problems but turning the leaning walls to shear straight walls should not be an engineering nightmare.

Another alternative is to make 5/6 slow lines only and then have 1/2 for fast London bound trains and 3/4 for fast coast bound trains. Redhill Trains should always come into 1/2 or 3/4 and cross over between South Croydon and Purley - will need a flyover for northbound trains.
 

pendolino

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2010
Messages
737
No - that is not what happens now

Platform 1 - London Bound fast

Platform 2 - Either London Fast or Coast bound Fast

Platform 3 - Coast bound fast

Platform 4 - London bound Slow - plus fast services from slow lines

Platform 5 - Terminators/ London Slows / Southbound slow

Platform 6 - Southbound slow

That doesn't sound massively different from:

Platforms 1/2 - all through trains to Gatwick and South Coast

Platforms 3/4 - All trains to Redhill loop and Tattenham/Caterham

Platforms 5/6 - all through trains East Grinstead/Oxted

Which is what you suggested earlier. Don't forget that plats 2-5 are reversible to allow any train to any route, either up or down, to stop at them which gives a massive amount of operational flexibility in the event of late running, train failure in the platform etc. Are you suggesting this flexibility is done away with?

In the peak hour Redhill services leave from platforms 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 - very confusing and complex - in fact the whole system is too complex at East Croydon as Passengers often have to run the large distances between platforms because there is no logic - but also that must be a nightmare to signal through for the signalmen which is why I suggested a simpler system. A lot less trains crossing over each other and thus should run smoother.

Why do you say it's too complex? Is this from experience as a passenger? Driver? Signaller? I would dispute that it's a 'nightmare' for a signaller (unless anyone from Panel 68 at Three Bridges posts on here and wants to correct me). I drive through there virtually every day I'm at work and I've not been wrong routed yet. In fact, for the number of trains passing through ECR, it all seems to work perfectly well with very problems (apart from a few minor pathing niggles - e.g., Caterhams and Tattenhams running 3 minutes apart).

It does seem a bit daft a terminating train occupying a platform at ECR for 15 minutes during the day, but then, as I said earlier, this is generally only 1tph during the day (to/from Milton Keynes) and plans are in place for these to terminate and turn back at South Croydon.

Which leaves the matter of it being 'confusing' for passengers going to Redhill. Passengers travelling from ECR arrive at the station, buy a ticket, check the massive alphabetically-listed departure board for the right platform, then head down one of three ramps to their platform. Why is that confusing? To be fair, one improvement I would like to see is better information for passengers changing at ECR - screens at platform/subway level that display departure information steadily rather than frustratingly changing to display a notice about forthcoming engineering work for 30 seconds while you're trying to find your train.

But with 6 platforms, someone will always have to run for a train if their connection time is limited - if the scheme you suggest is implemented, someone travelling from, say, Brighton to East Grinstead will still have to get from plat 1 to plat 6, maybe with only a couple of minutes to do it in (and you can't run down the subway ramps if it's a bit wet - too slippery! I wish they'd find a better surface). To the infrequent traveller the question of logic doesn't come into it as they will have no idea whether the platform layout is logical or not - all that is required is clear, precise information on how to find their train.

You seem to be suggesting major and costly engineering works (flyovers and widening cuttings) to solve what are fairly minor problems, if indeed they are problems at all. The massive costs and disruption involved seem to far outweigh the relatively minor benefits. 'If it ain't broke don't fix it'.
 

Malderon

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
81
I agree about making people change at ECR for their choice of London Terminal (although I think we only have one London Bridge service from Chichester the 06:59 which I sometimes take if I have to be in the City so I think to an extent it happens already, certainly most places have a primary destination and an occasional destination). I think there is also talk of this London Bridge service along with some others (Eastbourne? Littlehampton?) being cut when the number of Terminal platforms at London Bridge is reduced.

As someone who changes at East Croydon every day obviously the station is very busy and running at capacity but I do think it's well run for what they have. There is very little variation day to day in the platforms everything departs from and it doesnt take more than a couple of minutes to do say platform 1-6 (OK usually for me at a bit of a jog to meet my connection!).

Certainly as someone who takes the Tattenham Corner train I dont think it makes sense for them to use platform 3-4 as has been mentioned this would mean they need to transfer over to use the Purley junction anyway? I think ECR could probably do with a couple of extra tracks not that there is any room at all, as it just seems to me as someone who knows very little in all honesty that the timings are so tight that as soon as one train has anysort of delay at all, (less than a minute) platform slots become a real problem.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
Eight tph from the GN transfer to Thameslink, according to both the ECML RUS, and the recently published South East RUS. So somewhat more than 'a couple'...

The latter publication lists the services to be transferred:

8 tph peak from the GN 'Outers' to Thameslink:

Welwyn Garden City (ECML) - four x 8 car
Peterborough (ECML) - two x 12 car
Cambridge (ECML) - two x 12 car

6 tph peak remaining from GN 'Outers' into Kings Cross:

Cambridge via Welwyn Garden City - two x 8 car Cl 365
Peterborough fast - two x 12 car Cl 365
Ely/Kings Lynn fast - two x 8 car Cl 365

Absolutely, I reckon that 35 to 50% of Kings Cross passenger flows will defect overnight.
I can see demand for an outer London stop on EC to enable a cross platform interchange to Thameslink rather than face a transfer to tube or St Pancras from Kings Cross.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top