Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[43066]

Who's to say they'd be ASLEF members. More drivers overall is a very good idea

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"You have to provide a set of work patterns to suit the lazy Bs and a separate set to suit the greedy Cs".

Nice to see lazy industry stereotypes are alive and well

An odd comment. At my depot there isn’t a single driver who isn’t in ASLEF. That will be the case at many depots nationwide, so it’s hardly a “lazy industry stereotype”. The value of the union to the grade has never been clearer than now, so I’d suggest that won’t be changing anytime soon.

the unions need to grow a set and say to members they’re here to attempt to get full employment and people NOT needing to work or rely on overtime,

Not sure why you’re suggesting unions need to “grow a set” - this sounds like the usual lazy attempt to blame ASLEF for a situation created by the TOCs. As an ASLEF member I’m fully aware that the union’s stated objective is less overtime and more drivers employed. However overtime has always been a part of railway life, and the question of the extent to which it’s relied on is a slightly different one to whether Sundays should be in the working week.

All new starters on all gov toc’s having Sundays written into the working week would be a start, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’d have to work them yet but it would show intention.

I agree that’s the best solution, but we’re back to asking who is going to pay for it (more staff will be required)? What the unions don’t want is compulsory overtime, which is the worst of all worlds.

Toc’s need to employ more staff, if they can’t do that then how can they run a guaranteed service

They could pay more to do that, or they could keep Sundays outside and incentivise the staff properly - as has worked for many years. Currently they’re doing neither. Hence the service regularly falls apart on Sundays. The DfT don’t seem particularly motivated to address the issue, presumably because it only affects certain areas of the network, and they’ve calculated they there won’t be a significant long term loss of passengers as a result.

 

[Harpo]

overtime has always been a part of railway life

The industry has always used that to its advantage. It let people work more hours/days to supplement low pay and management kept vacancy gaps, especially in wages grades, saving on employment costs.

Trouble is, the industry hasn’t woken up to what better pay, conditions and lifestyles have done to the overtime culture.

 

[43066]

Trouble is, the industry hasn’t woken up to what better pay, conditions and lifestyles have done to the overtime culture

It’s interesting how many do still work a fair bit of it, though. I’d say over 50% of drivers where I am still do at least some.

There has been some reduction due to the back pay, but not as much as you might expect, and that will wear off in due course. Christmas is just around the corner.

 

[172007]

Trouble is, the industry hasn’t woken up to what better pay, conditions and lifestyles have done to the overtime culture.

The snag at my depot is that you need to make yourself available for rest day work between 1 week and a half to 2 weeks in advance. The restday work is then allocated on the 7 day advance roster. Now you can make yourself available after the 7 day until the 2 day roster goes up but you need permission and are the last to be used. The same old drivers make them selves available months in advance.

Myself l, I don't know that I or the westher is doing a 8 days before a restday so inevitably don't get to do restday work which I would if my diary was empty or the weather naff. As I am well paid it's not a massive penalty bit still a hit in the wallet and irritating.

The argument that just because drivers are well paid means they won't do restday / overtime is just a non starter. Plenty do it so they can retire earlier and bang it into brass and ISA's. You don't see multi million and billionaires stopping work just because they are minted, accumulation wealth is addictive.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The industry has always used that to its advantage. It let people work more hours/days to supplement low pay and management kept vacancy gaps, especially in wages grades, saving on employment costs.

Trouble is, the industry hasn’t woken up to what better pay, conditions and lifestyles have done to the overtime culture.

Spot on Harpo. The DfT and the TOCs still think you pressure crew into working overtime and RDW to keep the service goling. It doesn't work like that anymore and I have seen a considerable lessening of people wanting to RDW in the last six or seven years. Many 30s and 40s age groups are very happy with their work life balance and are happy with what they do. I think more relationships are based on both people sharing domestic responsibilities and work is just a part of their life, rather than how sandwiches were ready made waiting for the phone call.

What I don't understand is the Sunday premium thing. I have worked Sundays for the last 46 years of my career and for the last ten years at least every hour I work I get paid at a flat rate based on 35h pw on a balanced roster, and I haven't worked a rest day for ten years either. I don't need to or want to. The DfT need to transition to that and plan the timetables accordingly.

 

[Krokodil]

So I can’t imagine that there would be much/any difference in pensionable contributions?

Because in order to agree to Sundays inside the week there is usually a salary rise as part of the deal.

The argument that just because drivers are well paid means they won't do restday / overtime is just a non starter. Plenty do it so they can retire earlier and bang it into brass and ISA's.

Some do, but not in the numbers they used to. You still have the ones who have practically set up a tent in the booking on point, but particularly since Covid people have learned that it's actually quite nice to have time with one's family, especially if working puts you into a high marginal tax band.

You don't see multi million and billionaires stopping work just because they are minted, accumulation wealth is addictive.

They're not subject to the same taxation regimes as us mere mortals.

 

[12LDA28C]

Spot on Harpo. The DfT and the TOCs still think you pressure crew into working overtime and RDW to keep the service goling. It doesn't work like that anymore and I have seen a considerable lessening of people wanting to RDW in the last six or seven years. Many 30s and 40s age groups are very happy with their work life balance and are happy with what they do. I think more relationships are based on both people sharing domestic responsibilities and work is just a part of their life, rather than how sandwiches were ready made waiting for the phone call.

What I don't understand is the Sunday premium thing. I have worked Sundays for the last 46 years of my career and for the last ten years at least every hour I work I get paid at a flat rate based on 35h pw on a balanced roster, and I haven't worked a rest day for ten years either. I don't need to or want to. The DfT need to transition to that and plan the timetables accordingly.

With respect, the two bolded parts of your post suggest that you have probably reached retirement age and have quite possibly (and I appreciate this is an assumption on my part) already paid off your mortgage if you own your own property and have attained some level of financial comfort. Contrast that with someone young who has come into the industry in the last few years and is probably mortgaged to the hilt, or maybe still living at home and trying to save for a deposit to buy their first home. They might be rather more keen than you are to work their Rest Days to finance their outgoings.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Because in order to agree to Sundays inside the week there is usually a salary rise as part of the deal.

Agreed.

However, a salary rise compared to additional pensionable hours is somewhat different, is it not?
Especially since pay and productivity talks are usually in line with the financial year.

I can’t see it being treated any differently to changing jobs and equivocal/commensurate pensionable pay changes for example.
However, I’m absolutely aware my knowledge is limited, especially when it comes to the railway’s private pension schemes. So humble enough to learn if I’m wrong!

But that was my takeaway from the ASLEF National pensions forum.

 

[Krokodil]

Contrast that with someone young who has come into the industry in the last few years and is probably mortgaged to the hilt, or maybe still living at home and trying to save for a deposit to buy their first home. They might be rather more keen than you are to work their Rest Days to finance their outgoings.

There are quite a lot of young guards at Northern. Evidently they're not desperate for overtime, otherwise we wouldn’t be in this mess.

 

[officewalla]

Because the proportion of drivers who are not in ASLEF is negligible.

Not negligible but a small number nevertheless. About 5% at my depot are not in ASLEF or any union but I don't know how typical this is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

ASLEF advocate Sundays in the week, the reason why is less important although clearly the extra drivers which will need to be employed to achieve this will mean an increase in ASLEF membership, as well as more certainty about provision of a Sunday service. A rare example of a win/win for both the Union and passengers, surely?

Why do you assume that all drivers will want to join ASLEF? Perhaps they won't join ASLEF or there may be a better option for them in another union.

 

[Starmill]

Personally I'd never sign up for a system where any day of the week can't be booked to leave and can't be taken unpaid. I can understand that kind of arrangement for a live-in role (e.g. someone working at a very remote Royal Navy base) or for a slice of emergency service workers such as police officers, but honestly for anything less than that it's pretty ridiculous. Treating Sunday as an ordinary day is therefore the only sensible solution. Northern have some drivers on an odd sort of hybrid where they are guaranteed a Sunday off every six months if they request it in time.

 

[muz379]

Contrast that with someone young who has come into the industry in the last few years and is probably mortgaged to the hilt, or maybe still living at home and trying to save for a deposit to buy their first home. They might be rather more keen than you are to work their Rest Days to finance their outgoings.

Anecdotally of course but when I was a guard it was largely the middle age and older both drivers & guards who did the majority of the overtime trying to boost their pensions or pay for divorces / later remarriage in a lot of cases . The younger end largely wanted to spend their free time with their young families or friends . And came into an industry with very good wages from elsewhere so were aready earning a lot more than they had in the past .

Of course those trends had their exceptions , and I suspect that accross the industry there will be a huge amount of variety on that at different TOC's and different depots .

Why do you assume that all drivers will want to join ASLEF? Perhaps they won't join ASLEF or there may be a better option for them in another union.

I dont think it is an unreasonable assumption to expect that the current trend of membership density in the higher 90's would continue among any increase in establishments brought about by bringing sundays inside the working week .

 

[Harpo]

With respect, the two bolded parts of your post suggest that you have probably reached retirement age and have quite possibly (and I appreciate this is an assumption on my part) already paid off your mortgage if you own your own property and have attained some level of financial comfort. Contrast that with someone young who has come into the industry in the last few years and is probably mortgaged to the hilt, or maybe still living at home and trying to save for a deposit to buy their first home. They might be rather more keen than you are to work their Rest Days to finance their outgoings.

I wasn’t suggesting (nor I suspect was Wyreleybart) that there are no longer any ‘Martini Men’ (anytime any place etc.) in the industry because there always will be, but…….

for us old farts, the simple existence of uncovered Sunday turns is a seismic shift to the railway culture of our youth where the depot’s LDC was probably the only thing stopping folks killing each other to get an extra Sunday!

 

[12LDA28C]

Why do you assume that all drivers will want to join ASLEF? Perhaps they won't join ASLEF or there may be a better option for them in another union.

Because ASLEF is the union of train drivers and is best qualified to deal with issues relevant to that grade. New entrants to the grade are entitled to join whichever union they want or not and yet still the vast majority choose ASLEF which should tell you something.

 

[43066]

Why do you assume that all drivers will want to join ASLEF? Perhaps they won't join ASLEF or there may be a better option for them in another union.

Because, as several people have pointed out, ASLEF are by far the most relevant union for drivers. Both in terms of the support offered, but also because collective bargaining also means ASLEF negotiates Ts and Cs for all crew irrespective of whether they’re individually members or not.

AIUI the open access operators who have tried to dissuade front line staff from joining unions have nonetheless found that their members have joined ASLEF and the RMT, hence those unions are now recognised and places like LUMO and GC.

Personally I'd never sign up for a system where any day of the week can't be booked to leave and can't be taken unpaid. I can understand that kind of arrangement for a live-in role (e.g. someone working at a very remote Royal Navy base) or for a slice of emergency service workers such as police officers, but honestly for anything less than that it's pretty ridiculous. Treating Sunday as an ordinary day is therefore the only sensible solution. Northern have some drivers on an odd sort of hybrid where they are guaranteed a Sunday off every six months if they request it in time.

Indeed. Sundays as committed overtime of course means they can’t be booked as annual leave even if the days around them have been, making it impossible to plan a trip away etc., and that has to be considered in the already inflexible and anti social work patterns train drivers are subject to.

It doesn’t work particularly well from the TOC side (as seen on Northern and Thameslink/GA), as often they won’t count as attendance policy triggers, and nothing actually happens if the staff simply choose not to show up and forego the extra pay.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s interesting how many do still work a fair bit of it, though. I’d say over 50% of drivers where I am still do at least some.

There has been some reduction due to the back pay, but not as much as you might expect, and that will wear off in due course. Christmas is just around the corner.

There’s a big reduction in volunteers for rest days and overtime at some TOCs. Smaller reduction at some others.
.

 

[whoosh]

But here's a question that comes to mind, and stems from a thread about pensions.
In that thread, someone said (correctky i think) that pensionable pay can only increase by RPI+2.5% per year.

So should a productivity pay rise for getting sundays inside the working week achieve a rise beyond 2.5% above rpi (which i think it should), does that mean that the sundays in the working week won't achieve as much pensionable pay people think?

My question can be boiled down to, if i am correct. Is giving up your right to having Sundays outside the working week, worth a 2.5% pensionable pay uplift?

Or if i am totally mistaken. What have i misunderstood?

Your 'All service pensionable pay' along with any existing 'pension restructuring premiums' can only rise by RPI +2.5%.

If a payrise occurs that is more than RPI +2.5%, then it would still be pensionable pay. However, the portion above that amount would trigger a new 'pension restructuring premium' which would only be pensionable for future service only.

If you've got loads of years to do, then a much higher basic pay will absolutely help your pension, as the time you spend on that higher rate will be pensionable for a long time. If you haven't many years to do, then it won't lift your pension by as much as it used to before the scheme changed from 'final salary' to 'career average' in 2016.

This is the same situation you'd face for any promotion to a higher paying role as well.

Sundays in the working week is worth a lot more than 2.5%.

 

[Llanigraham]

Indeed. Sundays as committed overtime of course means they can’t be booked as annual leave even if the days around them have been, making it impossible to plan a trip away etc., and that has to be considered in the already inflexible and anti social work patterns train drivers are subject to.

Is that correct, as certainly in the Network Rail signalling grades, who have committed Sundays, they can be booked in conjunction with weekday A/L.

 

[Krokodil]

If a payrise occurs that is more than RPI +2.5%, then it would still be pensionable pay. However, the portion above that amount would trigger a new 'pension restructuring premium' which would only be pensionable for future service only.

So it limits how much a rise will be backdated in terms of pensions?

 

[whoosh]

So it limits how much a rise will be backdated in terms of pensions?

Yes.

 

[Stossgebet]

Your 'All service pensionable pay' along with any existing 'pension restructuring premiums' can only rise by RPI +2.5%.

If a payrise occurs that is more than RPI +2.5%, then it would still be pensionable pay. However, the portion above that amount would trigger a new 'pension restructuring premium' which would only be pensionable for future service only.

If you've got loads of years to do, then a much higher basic pay will absolutely help your pension, as the time you spend on that higher rate will be pensionable for a long time. If you haven't many years to do, then it won't lift your pension by as much as it used to before the scheme changed from 'final salary' to 'career average' in 2016.

This is the same situation you'd face for any promotion to a higher paying role as well.

Sundays in the working week is worth a lot more than 2.5%.
View attachment 168950

Thank you for the explaination and graphic.

 

[dk1]

Not negligible but a small number nevertheless. About 5% at my depot are not in ASLEF or any union but I don't know how typical this is.

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Why do you assume that all drivers will want to join ASLEF? Perhaps they won't join ASLEF or there may be a better option for them in another union.

We have had a tiny minority who didn’t initially want to join ASLEF but did in the end and as far as I am aware now only have one driver at my large depot who isn’t in but has tried but was refused membership due to earlier anti-union behaviour during the recent campaign.

 

[officewalla]

Because ASLEF is the union of train drivers and is best qualified to deal with issues relevant to that grade. New entrants to the grade are entitled to join whichever union they want or not and yet still the vast majority choose ASLEF which should tell you something.

Only one union visits the training school so it is almost a fait accompli at that point. The choice is very much badged as join ASLEF or else......not sure what the or else bit is as other options are available to those who want to look. Of course once that choice is made it is actually quite difficult to change once a persons' union status is made public knowledge (rights and wrongs of that are for another day). There is a significant proportion of drivers that I know who are unhappy with ASLEF for a number of reasons including the industrial action/inaction and some of the DDC personalities. A small number have left and some others feel that they cannot leave for fear of potential consequences.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Only one union visits the training school so it is almost a fait accompli at that point. The choice is very much badged as join ASLEF or else......not sure what the or else bit is as other options are available to those who want to look. Of course once that choice is made it is actually quite difficult to change once a persons' union status is made public knowledge (rights and wrongs of that are for another day). There is a significant proportion of drivers that I know who are unhappy with ASLEF for a number of reasons including the industrial action/inaction and some of the DDC personalities. A small number have left and some others feel that they cannot leave for fear of potential consequences.

I find that wholly untrue.
During training school, in my anecdotal experience, RMT did also come and introduce the union to us.

It is however, somewhat evident that the sensible option is to join ASLEF as a train driver, in the same logic that it would be laughed at to join the NEU or RCN if you worked on the railway.
The representation is for your profession.

A ‘significant proportion’ of drivers seems like an unquantified statement. I think it would be more fair to say that everyone has an idea on how the industrial action, dispute and the tactics thereof should have been conducted.
In the same breath, I would also allege the ‘significant proportion’ of drivers of which you speak, probably don’t all agree with each other on how the dispute should have been dealt with.

As a union, it is ultimately on its members to vote for, and communicate with any and all elected individuals; and if those with suggestions, complaints or qualms feel so compelled, are more than welcome to do so at regular (usually monthly) branch meetings, annual elections and raise concerns in representation with all levels.

I would imagine however, the vast majority of those ‘dissatisfied’ individuals regularly miss branch meetings, have never held a union position, or even bothered to write to their LDC, DDC or otherwise. So one would imagine, as is often the case, they just like to complain for the sake of complaining.
Of course leaving the union is always an option too as you pointed out… but those same individuals know the merit of the representation they receive.
Switching between unions has never been an issue at any depot I’ve worked at… but is certainly frowned upon during a dispute as a means to avoid/work around strike days.

At the end of the day, the votes during the last dispute and the membership numbers speak for themselves. And whilst I agree, that there will always be outspoken individuals voicing opinions, on the whole drivers know the safety of the union and the protection of drivers’ interests far outweighs any slight personal preferences they have.

 

[riceuten]

I find the anti-union stuff on here a bit hysterical, truth be told. As a trade unionist for most of my working life, and an elected official for a good deal of that, my primary motivation for recruitment of staff to my then employers is to make life easier for employees (TU-members or not) rather than recruitment of new union members to pay subs to keep "union barons" rich. The implication above is that the closed shop is alive and well, and that all we need is a compulsory overtime/a strike ban/driverless trains and all our recruitment problems will disappear.

 

[Red Rover]

I find the anti-union stuff on here a bit hysterical, truth be told. As a trade unionist for most of my working life, and an elected official for a good deal of that, my primary motivation for recruitment of staff to my then employers is to make life easier for employees (TU-members or not) rather than recruitment of new union members to pay subs to keep "union barons" rich. The implication above is that the closed shop is alive and well, and that all we need is a compulsory overtime/a strike ban/driverless trains and all our recruitment problems will disappear.

As someone who knows someone who worked for one of the rail unions for 20 years he’d say it was run as a business, sure the mantra and primary goal was workers rights but I’ll go back to the fact they’ve never pushed for an effective work to rule or members not to work overtime as it’d hurt the unions.
Capitalism and socialism in perfect harmony of avoiding the issue as it’s always been done, there’ll be a day when they have to front up though.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think the thread question as posed has been answered. Thanks everyone.