Converting freight trains to passenger usage

[frankmoh]

The units [Class 325s] were built in such a way that they could easily be converted for passenger use if no longer required for mail services.

Excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the Class 325. An unsourced statement sadly.

I'm just wondering if any freight trains in the UK have ever been converted into passenger use as opposed to the other way around.

Obviously with the 325s it has never happened and I have no clue what they would have been used for. Substitutes for the 365s or 319s? Who knows.

I do apologise to the website staff for making two posts in this section on the same day.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the Class 325. An unsourced statement sadly.

I'm just wondering if any freight trains in the UK have ever been converted into passenger use as opposed to the other way around.

Obviously with the 325s it has never happened and I have no clue what they would have been used for. Substitutes for the 365s or 319s? Who knows.

I do apologise to the website staff for making two posts in this section on the same day.

Freight locos yes, it wasn't unheard of for a BR 9F to haul passengers stock. I would imagine in the early days freight and third class stock was interchangeable on some railways.

 

[Class15]

There has been so little ‘freight’ multiple unit stock that I don’t think it has happened.

What is possible is that some non-passenger coaches were converted to passenger coaches later on, probably in the BR era?

 

[PeterC]

There are plenty of instances around the world of goods wagons being used to carry troops or prisoners in wartime .

In my much younger "crayoning" days I did wonder about the feasibility of a passenger module that would fit a container flat.

 

[SynthD]

the Class 325 is based on the Class 319

Is this the only freight train based on.a passenger train? That might be why this one (if it wasn't only 16 units, that are 30 years old) we are considering for conversion.

 

[30907]

What is possible is that some non-passenger coaches were converted to passenger coaches later on, probably in the BR era?

The nearest I can get is the full brakes in a handful of LTS units that were converted to passenger - but of course they were basically passenger vehicles anyway.

Slightly stretching a point, as they were not freight stock, but the Middleton Railway in Leeds has some passenger conversions from SR-type GUV/CCTs (the Ciernohronska system in Slovakia has some equivalents, and I doubt they are alone...)

Back on topic, the first bogie freight vehicles passed for anything like passenger speeds were the Freightliner flats in the mid 60s - and by then BR was shedding passenger stock anyway.

 

[Gloster]

To make one thing clear: parcels, mail and similar vehicles are not freight vehicles, but Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS) * built to passenger standards. However, I don’t think that many were so converted, although there may have been odd conversions of underframes for experimental and trial purposes.

There may have been occasional conversions of wagons into passenger vehicles in the early days of railways, something that may have continued on one or two of the more ramshackle minor lines until the second half of the nineteenth century. But after that it would have come to an end on all significant lines. Of course, there were those fifties and sixties railtours using open wagons in which the participants stood (Collapse of stout H&S party!).

* - Other terms than NPCCS have been used over the years.

 

[RUK]

In my much younger "crayoning" days I did wonder about the feasibility of a passenger module that would fit a container flat.

If the connections between the module to the base were not as strong as with a standard passenger coach, might that present problems in the case of an accident?

 

[PeterC]

If the connections between the module to the base were not as strong as with a standard passenger coach, might that present problems in the case of an accident?

I was a lot younger then and very enthusiastic with the crayon box.

 

[43096]

The nearest I can get is the full brakes in a handful of LTS units that were converted to passenger - but of course they were basically passenger vehicles anyway.

The 4-VEPs had part of the brake area converted to passenger accommodation on refurbishment.

More recently four of the Class 460 baggage/first driving motor cars were converted to full passenger vehicles for use in Class 458/5 sets 458532 and 458536.

 

[6Gman]

If the connections between the module to the base were not as strong as with a standard passenger coach, might that present problems in the case of an accident?

Wasn't there a "guard's container" built in very early Freightliner days? The equivalent of a conventional goods brake van (but without the brake presumably) as a 20' container with windows, which would be loaded onto the rearmost flat.

Don't think it was ever used; instead guard moved to back cab of loco.

I think (though I don't really trust my memory these days) there were some test runs and the NUR objected strongly as the riding was terrible!

 

[Gloster]

Wasn't there a "guard's container" built in very early Freightliner days? The equivalent of a conventional goods brake van (but without the brake presumably) as a 20' container with windows, which would be loaded onto the rearmost flat.

Don't think it was ever used; instead guard moved to back cab of loco.

I think (though I don't really trust my memory these days) there were some test runs and the NUR objected strongly as the riding was terrible!

It was a small container-like box fitted up for the guard’s use and intended to be easily lifted on and off at terminals. I think it did run a few trials but, being at the back of the train, the guards were hurled about like a pea in a whistle. Management tried it out and in an astoundingly short time conceded that the idea was to be abandoned pdq. For a while they substituted withdrawn revenue coaches, mostly former Mark 1 Non-Corridor Brake Seconds but including a few oddments like maroon Stanier and green Bulleid brakes. This didn’t last long and an agreement was reached allowing guards to travel in the rear cab of locos on fully-braked trains; previously, there had to be a guard in the van on all trains, fully-braked or no. I believe that the NRM has one of these cubes.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Wasn't there a "guard's container" built in very early Freightliner days? The equivalent of a conventional goods brake van (but without the brake presumably) as a 20' container with windows, which would be loaded onto the rearmost flat.

Absolutely - and, further to Gloster's excellent explanation, web images are readily available by searching with phrase Freightliner guard's cabin

My only other thought for this thread - it's very tenuous due to its temporary nature - was the usage of 20 ton freight guards vans for enthusiast trips along "rare" lines; particularly during the 1960s.

 

[6Gman]

Absolutely - and, further to Gloster's excellent explanation, web images are readily available by searching with phrase Freightliner guard's cabin

My only other thought for this thread - it's very tenuous due to its temporary nature - was the usage of 20 ton freight guards vans for enthusiast trips along "rare" lines; particularly during the 1960s.

And, of course, stranded passengers were sometimes "rescued" by such vehicles as my family were when we found ourselves at Georgemas Junction with hours to wait for the next train to Thurso! A Class 26 + 20t brake van answered our need - never found out whether it was a booked move or a special on our behalf (I would only have been about 7 at the time). My father being a footplateman may have helped in any negotiation ...

 

[Sun Chariot]

What a wonderful anecdote @6Gman and I am envious!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What a wonderful anecdote @6Gman and I am envious!

I am envious too!