Contactless payment cards outside London

[the101]

So change the fare system or introduce touch off.

The fare system is certainly no excuse for not allowing smartphone ticketing for singles. You could choose route number, origin and destination.

So, given that you claim to have been a consultant, why don't you offer your services to Reading and let Martijn Gilbert know exactly where he is going wrong? I'm sure you'll have things at such a backward-thinking operator sorted out quick-sharp.

Or alternatively Martijn knows a lot more than you do about such things and there is a real reason why your very odd desire not to have to talk to the driver has not been acted on.

I wonder which is more likely?

 

[radamfi]

Or alternatively Martijn knows a lot more than you do about such things and there is a real reason why your very odd desire not to have to talk to the driver has not been acted on.

In urban areas across Europe the size of Greater Reading you would expect few tickets to be sold from the driver. It is hardly "odd". Most places want to keep the bus moving as much as possible and minimise time wasted at bus stops.

 

[Jordeh]

So, given that you claim to have been a consultant, why don't you offer your services to Reading and let Martijn Gilbert know exactly where he is going wrong? I'm sure you'll have things at such a backward-thinking operator sorted out quick-sharp.

Or alternatively Martijn knows a lot more than you do about such things and there is a real reason why your very odd desire not to have to talk to the driver has not been acted on.

I wonder which is more likely?

There's no need to be rude to Radamfi, just because something is done a certain way does not mean it is the best way of doing something. Alternatively, rarely is one solution most appropriate for everything.

Anywho just because Martijn Gilbert is a CEO, it doesn't mean he's an expert in every area of his business (I've no idea who he is or how competent he is for the record)

 

[JaJaWa]

First have been accepting contactless payment on its buses across England using touch in touch out since the end of 2012

http://www.eurotransportmagazine.co...ment-in-groundbreaking-bus-ticket-technology/

Either it was cancelled or this article isn't serious?

 

[radamfi]

Either it was cancelled or this article isn't serious?

It was a FirstGroup press release and that article merely copied it word for word.

I couldn't find it earlier as the original link was broken because the website has changed. But it is still there

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2011/03-09-2011-ukbus.aspx

 

[WelshBluebird]

Personally the big thing that CPC's / something like Oyster gives you is the ability to implement a daily cap for a passenger, so you no longer have to think upfront if you are going to make enough journeys to warrant buying a day ticket or not! You just pay as you go and if you hit the cap (that would be the cost of the day ticket) then you don't pay any more than that.

 

[plcd1]

They went to the trouble of buying compatible ticket machines but did they even have any intention of implementing contactless payment? What is crazy is that hardly anyone remembers this spectacular failure. If a public authority had failed to deliver on such a scale there would be widespread criticism, and rightly so.

I remember it. I am amazed that no one was shouting about this but I suspect that if you're a regular user of First Bus you're simply glad if the bus turns up never mind fretting about "bells and whistles" like CPC acceptance.

My hunch is that First thought it would be very easy to implement an "industry standard" bit of technology. When they really thought about it they realised it was very much harder to do and required strong processes and controls if any form of "best value" charging (capping etc) was to be offered. Given many bus companies have very light admin and management structures there would be considerable cost involved in taking on people competent enough to handle financial data never mind how you deal with banks. When you then throw in the fact that First have been restructuring and experimenting with many of their subsidiaries to get some growth you then have the added joy of implementing a nationwide piece of technology and process against a moving target of an organisation. That way lies disaster. No wonder it's taken forever to get to the launch of something in the Bristol area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, given that you claim to have been a consultant, why don't you offer your services to Reading and let Martijn Gilbert know exactly where he is going wrong?

The entire UK bus industry is utterly backwards when it comes to ticketing and fare collection, which always amazes me given that moving ticketing off the bus and going fully dual-door would slash running times and thus save huge amounts of money by reducing PVRs. It appears from what I can see to be blind "not invented here" conservatism.

Germany has had off bus ticketing for years. And drivers can still sell tickets if needs be - it's just that almost nobody needs them to because every other option is a better one - a very clear case of carrot over stick.

And while I'm sure chatting to the driver is all very pleasant, and isn't a great issue on a rural service that might carry 5 passengers and a couple of dogs and shopping trolleys, in a city I'd rather it took one minute to fully load a double decker rather than the ten it takes here.

 

[philthetube]

I can't remember the last time I got on a bus and didn't know where I wanted to get off.

I imagine that not many people can however I have often got on a bus not knowing the name of the stop I want and had a long discussion with the driver trying to establish this, this is not uncommon to see.

 

[jon0844]

Personally the big thing that CPC's / something like Oyster gives you is the ability to implement a daily cap for a passenger, so you no longer have to think upfront if you are going to make enough journeys to warrant buying a day ticket or not! You just pay as you go and if you hit the cap (that would be the cost of the day ticket) then you don't pay any more than that.

In London, this is a big benefit but I'd frankly be quite happy just to be able to pay a driver (who asks a destination and gives a ticket the old fashioned way) with my card/phone.

Going forward, it would be great to have a ticket system that can apply a cap and charge the same way as TfL, at the end of the day/week, but with the way buses work in most of the country, I doubt that would be possible as things stand.

Never say never, but where's the incentive? Only legislation to say that bus companies must accept CPCs would make things happen.

Talking of which, I am amazed the rail industry isn't upgrading all TVMs and ticket office terminals to accept CPCs. Many sales will be under £30, but there's then Apple/Android Pay for higher payments. It could also speed up ToD collections.

But, hey, we've only had contactless cards since around 2007. So I have to let everyone off, as TEN YEARS obviously isn't long enough to plan and implement such facilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of which, I am amazed the rail industry isn't upgrading all TVMs and ticket office terminals to accept CPCs.

It is. LM has just updated its TVMs with new card readers including contactless, for example, and new software similar to that used on SWT which is a big improvement (key improvements other than the UI include remote issue and stopping issuing pointless receipts unless you want them).

 

[jon0844]

GTR has installed some machines that take CPCs, but when I asked about the rest they said that as the machines are leased they won't be upgraded.. it's not part of the contract.

So at Hatfield, you have 2 ticket windows and 4 TVMs. One machine takes CPCs, and that machine is often 'out of service' for unknown reasons.

At WGC, you have 3 ticket windows and 6 TVMs. One machine takes CPCs but for two weeks it was out of action (machine worked, CPC reader didn't). I reported a few times online and at the window and was met with an odd look, until I realised nobody had been told that the machine even took contactless cards.

There's also nothing on the machine to say you can pay contactless. For some odd reason there's a separate pad for CPCs as for smartcards too. Very odd, but typical of the rail industry!

So, going back, it seems that GTR isn't going big on CPCs. They appear unaware that the newest machines even had them. Now I expect that isn't true, but it seems like it.

On top of that, you have all the machines RPIs carry which could take CPCs too. Are the newest bits of kit being rolled out set up for it?

 

[PeterC]

I imagine that not many people can however I have often got on a bus not knowing the name of the stop I want and had a long discussion with the driver trying to establish this, this is not uncommon to see.

I doubt if any of the regulars on my local bus knows the offical names of their stops while the drivers can seldom match the names on their ticket machine to local landmarks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt if any of the regulars on my local bus knows the offical names of their stops while the drivers can seldom match the names on their ticket machine to local landmarks.

While I accept flat fare won't work everywhere, a coarse, ideally zonal fare structure with clear defining features like major roads[1] does help this kind of thing.

I do think we don't make enough of stop names in this country, though. It's more likely to be something nondescript like "High St/Back Road" than "Shopping Centre", and that doesn't drive memorability. Again something the Germans are better at.

[1] In MK grid squares. For years, there were fare stages a couple of stops into estates, and so people were sold the wrong fares (too high and too low) all the time. A sensible change Arriva brought in was to change the fare stage boundaries to be the main roads to solve this.

 

[radamfi]

I doubt if any of the regulars on my local bus knows the offical names of their stops while the drivers can seldom match the names on their ticket machine to local landmarks.

Britain was a latecomer to naming stops. Naming stops was normal for decades in other countries. Naming stops has numerous benefits, for example they can be used on "next stop" displays and announcements, they can be used in journey planners and when giving directions. Which meant until stop naming those things were difficult to do in Britain. But even now, in many places it isn't being done properly. For example, names are often not displayed at every bus stop and shelter.

And the names given are often too long winded, for example using the name of the main road and side road together. If people had bothered to look abroad there is a standard template available. Use the municipality/locality, followed by a descriptive name. Most of the time you can drop the municipality/locality if it is clear so generally you will be using a short, snappy name. But the full name means it can be easily identified in a regional or national planner.

 

[PeterC]

I do think we don't make enough of stop names in this country, though. It's more likely to be something nondescript like "High St/Back Road" than "Shopping Centre", and that doesn't drive memorability. Again something the Germans are better at.

TfL seems to name stops by the side roads on the route rather than landmarks. On the 103, which I used regularly as a lad and occasionally while my parents were alive, the LT fare stage of Eastern Avenue/Pettits Lane became Heather Gardens. When there were graduated cash fares everybody asked for "Fire Station" which is a very obvious local landmark, located between the north and southbound stops while Heather Gardens is north of both. To confuse us more the Pettits Lane name was given to the previous stop on Eastern Avenue.

 

[jon0844]

We have stops for road bands adjacent to bus stops. This is perhaps a little confusing as the bus stop for the road I'm on is a distance away as it's the stop near it. The stops ON the road itself are named after rather tiny side roads.

Then on the business park they have a stop for T-Mobile, which of course has changed to EE many years ago. And in fact, most of EE has moved to be replaced by Ocado. The bus stop isn't likely to be renamed, so naming after businesses doesn't seem like a great idea.

Sent from my VTR-L29 using Tapatalk

 

[Deerfold]

TfL seems to name stops by the side roads on the route rather than landmarks. On the 103, which I used regularly as a lad and occasionally while my parents were alive, the LT fare stage of Eastern Avenue/Pettits Lane became Heather Gardens. When there were graduated cash fares everybody asked for "Fire Station" which is a very obvious local landmark, located between the north and southbound stops while Heather Gardens is north of both. To confuse us more the Pettits Lane name was given to the previous stop on Eastern Avenue.

TfL had an audit of stop names before introducing iBus. Most stops are named after adjoining roads. Notable exceptions are when it is the nearest stop to a station or certain very major locations.

They tend to avoid landmarks (especially pub names which used to be used regularly) as these can change with short notice.

There is a stop in Isleworth which is named after the Fire Station.

The Fire Station has closed but it is now a pub called "The Fire Station".

My local stop in West Yorkshire has multiple names. It has a name on it, it has another one if I look it up online to find real-time bus information. The only route which passes which has on-board announcements calls it a third name.

 

[Busaholic]

My local stop in West Yorkshire has multiple names. It has a name on it, it has another one if I look it up online to find real-time bus information. The only route which passes which has on-board announcements calls it a third name.

Just the thing to tempt the driver out of his/her car, I don't think. Some bus companies and council transport operators just don't get it, do they? Roger French in 'Buses' magazine has often railed against these things, as the late Julian Osborne used to do too. As Mr French has been at the sharp end of a very well-regarded bus operating company his words deserve consideration.