Confiscated rail-only season ticket used on bus

[talltim]

If a counterfeit/fraudulent copy of a ticket is NOT actually a ticket, then are you saying that an Inspector would not be permitted to withdraw it, because it belongs to the customer, and the bus/train company etc has nothing to do with it's issue/creation?

Well maybe your example gets into murkier waters, but AFAIK, the ticket itself was a properly issued one created by the train company, it just wasn't valid on the bus, in the same way as any other random bit paper wouldn't be.
I assume that drivers don't look at tickets on boarding any more?

 

[DelayRepay]

Completely separate from that, taking your rail-only ticket, in simple layman's terms, was theft. TFL took and retained a valuable document from you that they seemingly had no entitlement too.

I am not a lawyer but who actually owns this ticket? I think it's owned by the rail company so they are the "victims" of this theft, no?

 

[island]

I am not a lawyer but who actually owns this ticket? I think it's owned by the rail company so they are the "victims" of this theft, no?

Under section 5 of the Theft Act 1968 it is made clear that property shall be regarded as belonging to anyone having possession or control of it. So I think you're barking up the wrong tree. As am I, to an extent.

 

[Abpj17]

I am not a lawyer but who actually owns this ticket? I think it's owned by the rail company so they are the "victims" of this theft, no?

Oh, that's a good question though...but I'd safely assume the answer certainly isn't TfL/the bus operator.

Relevant bits of NCC states:

Keep your ticket safe. It is your ticket, not the receipt for it, which gives you the right to travel. Do not lose, damage or attempt to alter your ticket.

Show and, if asked by a member of Train Company staff, hand over your ticket and any associated Railcard/photocard for inspection.

A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use.

If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another party (including the right to travel in another party’s transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party. The conditions relating to these additional goods or services may be different, and will be obtainable from that other party.

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company.

A ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey and it is your responsibility to keep it safe. If you lose or mislay a ticket or it is stolen, it will not be replaced nor will any of the cost be refunded.

 

[FOH]

I assume that drivers don't look at tickets on boarding any more?

In my experience in London, more and more, drivers will barely look away from the windscreen as passengers board.

 

[dr_novell]

That's correct National Rail own the ticket. I was actually advised to report it lost or stolen by a TFL employee. So I did - both to the police and Southern Trains.

There are laws that cover what they are allowed to seize and where (I was not on the bus at the time the ticket was seized). There are also laws that determine how the evidence is kept. This is designed to protect the evidence so that it does get tampered with and to protect the person doing the seizing from being accused of doing something that may be seen as dishonest.

My concern is that if a ticket inspector can not identify a ticket then we have a problem. By saying its "not valid" or "not for London" (ambiguous as I found out that it could have be used to go through the barriers at Waterloo and Wimbledon both of which are in London) or "it doesn't have a 1 in it" (see my post about southern ticket inspector incorrectly identifying a travel card on a oyster even though they were using a hand held oyster card reader) in my view is not sufficient evidence as to why it was not valid.

Now I hate to say it but if TFL can not identify a ticket then there is a legitimate argument for everyone who has been given a PFN to ask for their money to be returned unless TFL or ICARS can clearly identify the ticket that was presented.

 

[bb21]

Last year I was stopped on a bus with a railcard and the ticket inspector confiscated my ticket.

(I was not on the bus at the time the ticket was seized).

Confused.com

 

[swt_passenger]

That's correct National Rail own the ticket.

You know you'd get a lot more sympathy here if you were to admit that you originally made a big error yourself in attempting to use a 'train ticket' on a bus.

In the entire thread you've never yet responded or agreed to the points explaining that you were mis-describing the ticket, it was left to other posters to determine from the price you paid that what you had was a rail only season ticket.

 

[Greenback]

It reads to me as though the OP is not claiming that the ticket was valid, but is upset about the reasoning as to why it wasn't valid. As far as I can see the ticket wasn't valid, regardless of what TfL thought the reason was, so it seems a rather bizarre argument to me.

 

[talldave]

I believe he's upset at a rail ticket being confiscated by a bus company representative.

The whole issue of being guilty of travelling without a ticket does seem to have been glossed over, but that's not what the thread appears to be about?

I can have some sympathy for the ticket having been taken when the bus company representative had no power to do so. But the OP brought the situation upon themselves by showing it instead of a valid ticket - a somewhat stupid action, when a cigarette packet or sweet wrapper would have been just as invalid, but with less inconvenience when confiscated.

 

[Statto]

It reads to me as though the OP is not claiming that the ticket was valid, but is upset about the reasoning as to why it wasn't valid. As far as I can see the ticket wasn't valid, regardless of what TfL thought the reason was, so it seems a rather bizarre argument to me.

TFL do allow rail only tickets to be used on London Buses but only when there is severe disruption to rail services, however this wasn't the case, the OP wasn't allowed to use their rail only season ticket on London Buses, but did so & got caught

 

[185]

Confused.com

I believe it will have been conducted in the manner of an ordinary bus 'gateway operation' procedure... TfL staff board, and walk anyone ticketless / invalid tickets off and deal with them outside the bus.

 

[dr_novell]

I won my case against TFL.

Facts
Season Ticket was withdrawn – no contest
Temporary authority to travel written incorrectly – no contest
Penalty Fare Notice not issued

TFL argue that the letter sent the next day is sufficient evidence of a penalty fare. The judge questioned whether the author of the letter had sufficient authorisation under the act.

Also the judge ruled that the letter itself only states that a PFN has been issued and outlines what options to take. Its not a requirement to pay the penalty fare.

If a person travels on a non-ticket bus service without paying the fare
properly payable for a journey on that service and, while so travelling, fails to
produce a general travel authority on being required to do so by an authorised
person, he shall be liable to pay a penalty fare if required to do so by an
authorised person.

Also discussed was whether it was theft. The judge was willing to accept theft as a layman’s term for conversion.

TFL evidence was laughable as they had a 3rd or 4th hand statement and a print screen of a web page showing details of my penalty fare which was not dated. They could not produce a copy of the actual PFN or even the inspectors notebook which I wrote my details on. This page should have been handed back to me.

My advice is if you did not receive a PFN then I would question it.

Thanks for all the comments and big thanks to the team at London Travel Watch.

 

[Tibbs]

A good result for you - goes to show how important strictly following the process is.

Did you get your rail season back? Did you have to buy tickets to travel while it was confiscated?

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps sometimes it's a good idea to go to court and see what happens. In this case, the evidence produced was poor, and way below what is necessary to secure a conviction. Good result in the circumstances.

 

[Flamingo]

The moral of the story is, even if you're guilty as hell, the other side might screw up the paperwork.

 

[Waldgrun]

Seem there's a BIG question still to be answered, why did the O.P. get on the bus with his Rail only season ticket?

 

[asylumxl]

The moral of the story is, even if you're guilty as hell, the other side might screw up the paperwork.

I think the issue here is whether he should have had this rail season ticket withdrawn. While I don't know the legalities, it seems to me the logical course of action was to issue a PF and that be that.



You often make me wonder why some people work in a customer facing role if they have such disdain towards them. But that's one of those questions in our universe that we will never truly know the answer to.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The moral of the story is, even if you're guilty as hell, the other side might screw up the paperwork.

No, the moral of the story is "don't be a lazybones and do the paperwork properly". It's not as though these people aren't paid enough.

 

[bb21]

I don't think there is any point discussing what the "moral" of the story is. It will just descend into pointless arguments.

The only thing we know is: the OP did something wrong, TfL messed up, so the OP got a favourable outcome at the end. I am sure everyone can draw his own conclusion from it.