Complicated Weekend

[walkingsophie]

This weekend I will be doing quite a few weird journeys and even I am not sure about the best way to do them. For context, I have a 16-25 railcard and am willing to do any kind of routeing shenanigans that I can book with an itinerary

On Friday, I will be leaving Upper Halliford at 07:23 and heading to King's Cross arriving before 9, where I will meet some friends. We will then be playing a game of hide and seek in London, which involves a 50% chance of me going to some Z1-4 station at 9:15 and a 50% chance of doing many journeys in London Z1-4 after 10:15. I will then go to Cambridge late in the evening.

On Sunday, I will be doing a day trip from Cambridge to somewhere, then be heading back to Upper Halliford. For this day, I am completely flexible with the timings. If it costs around or less than £5 extra, I would prefer my day trip to be at a location Northeast or East of Cambridge like Bury St Edmunds or Thetford, otherwise I am happy to just do a break of journey south of Cambridge. If people have specific day trip suggestions, please do let me know.

 

[Watershed]

I imagine 07:23 must be a typo for the 07:33 which runs via Richmond, as there is no 07:23. If you're travelling via Kingston, replace the first ticket below with one to Boundary Zone 4 for £6.50.

I can't guarantee it's the cheapest option, but how about:

• Upper Halliford to Richmond Anytime Day Single £6.00 (cheaper than a ticket to BZ4)
• Anytime Day Travelcard Zones 1-4 £16.60
• Tottenham Hale to Cambridge Weekend Return, route "not via London", £20.60

Then on the way back, add on:

• Tottenham Hale to Upper Halliford Off-Peak Day Single, route "via Gospel Oak", £4.15

Total cost £47.35

I'm not sure quite what the intended route for the latter ticket is. Perhaps the idea is to use the Victoria line to Blackhorse Road and then the Overground to Richmond changing at Gospel Oak? The ticket doesn't have a Maltese Cross so I'm not sure it would work the Underground barriers at Tottenham Hale, but I can't see any other sensible route.

The Weekend Return allows break of journey without restriction, though of course you'd have to use slower Greater Anglia services. I can't particularly say I'm aware of any of the towns on that route being hugely worthwhile stopping off at. A quick Google search suggests Audley End House and Gardens or the Imperial War Museum at Duxford as two potential options but they're both a bus journey or long walk from the respective stations (Audley End or Whittlesford Parkway).

 

[kijeta]

I'm not sure quite what the intended route for the latter ticket is. Perhaps the idea is to use the Victoria line to Blackhorse Road and then the Overground to Richmond changing at Gospel Oak? The ticket doesn't have a Maltese Cross so I'm not sure it would work the Underground barriers at Tottenham Hale, but I can't see any other sensible route.

According to the eNRG, it seems to suggest Tottenham Hale to Clapton London Fields to Dalston Kingsland is a possible routeing? In reality, it obviously wouldn't work.

However, staying on the GA until Hackney Central/Downs, then changing to the Mildmay Line, seems viable?

 

[Watershed]

According to the eNRG, it seems to suggest Tottenham Hale to Clapton is a possible routeing? In reality, it obviously wouldn't work.

The impossible link is actually between Hackney Downs and Dalston Kingsland, which physically doesn't exist. A spur does exist from London Fields to Dalston Kingsland (it was the replacement line for trains that formerly ran into Broad Street) but it doesn't have any passenger services booked to use it so it's equally useless as you say.

However, staying on the GA until Hackney Central/Downs, then changing to the Mildmay Line, seems viable?

Yes, that actually makes more sense. You'd need to change onto an ex-Hertford service at Tottenham Hale, which by definition is going to entail a long-ish wait since those run as stoppers behind the Cambridge semifasts. But it's doable.

 

[walkingsophie]

Tottenham Hale to Cambridge Weekend Return, route "not via London", £20.60

I only see via London for Friday Weekend Returns https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TOM&dest=CBG&rlc=YNG&rte=200&tkt=WKF

 

[Watershed]

I only see via London for Friday Weekend Returns https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TOM&dest=CBG&rlc=YNG&rte=200&tkt=WKF

Quite right - I was misreading it. Of course there is no compulsion for you to use the ticket in its entirety; you're quite entitled to "start late" at Tottenham Hale after having skipped the double-back via London.

In theory, the fact it's routed "via London" rather than "GA only" means it would be valid on the Tube or Elizabeth line/Thameslink between Liverpool Street and Kings Cross St Pancras and then on GTR, but as it lacks a Maltese cross you won't get a journey planner itinerary to validate that. I'd stick to the intended route in all honesty.

 

[Crithylum]

I only see via London for Friday Weekend Returns https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TOM&dest=CBG&rlc=YNG&rte=200&tkt=WKF

I wouldn’t read too much into the routing, given that they were somehow able to make the restrictions text less useful, starting from “restriction text here”.

 

[walkingsophie]

Quite right - I was misreading it. Of course there is no compulsion for you to use the ticket in its entirety; you're quite entitled to "start late" at Tottenham Hale after having skipped the double-back via London.

I do not see an easement allowing for the double back. I think this ticket may be impossible to use while following all the rules.

 

[kijeta]

Of course there is no compulsion for you to use the ticket in its entirety; you're quite entitled to "start late" at Tottenham Hale after having skipped the double-back via London.

Is there a particular reason the Saturday Weekend Returns are "not via London", but Friday ones are "via London"?

In theory, the fact it's routed "via London" rather than "GA only" means it would be valid on the Tube or Elizabeth line/Thameslink between Liverpool Street and Kings Cross St Pancras and then on GTR

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is there's no interavailability for LST-KGX, so surely tube would not be valid? How does London Stations Group work in terms of routeing? As in, will changing at Farringdon (using NR services only) be legal?

 

[walkingsophie]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is there's no interavailability for LST-KGX, so surely tube would not be valid? How does London Stations Group work in terms of routeing? As in, will changing at Farringdon (using NR services only) be legal?

From what I understand, as there are no walk links from Liverpool's Street Station towards Farringdon/KCX, and as the ticket is not valid on LU links, you can not draw a route without doublebacks using London

 

[Watershed]

I do not see an easement allowing for the double back. I think this ticket may be impossible to use while following all the rules.

No such easement is needed. You can either rely on the fact that the ticket is routed "via London" and use the split route check, or you can refer to the Routeing Guide which lists LONDON as a mapped route combination. Either validates travel via Liverpool Street.

Doubling back is not inherently barred; it is allowed in quite a few situations. There are many fares such as this where it is not only permitted but envisaged - also see for example Watford to Manchester via London.

Is there a particular reason the Saturday Weekend Returns are "not via London", but Friday ones are "via London"?

It's probably just a mistake. The same as how the Friday Weekend Return has the restriction code that's applicable to Saturday and vice versa. I can't say whether it's GA's fault or RDG's when setting up the fares, but either way it's sloppy.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is there's no interavailability for LST-KGX, so surely tube would not be valid?

It's valid on the Tube because LONDON is a mapped route. The Routing Guide states that:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

How does London Stations Group work in terms of routeing?

There are multiple different definitions/concepts here. London Terminals is a fares group which excludes Farringdon and other stations between Liverpool Street and Paddington on the Elizabeth line 'core'.

The London Routeing Point Group is a routing concept. Some stations are members of the group whilst others are associated with it. Farringdon is AFAIK unique in that it is associated with the London Routeing Point Group, but isn't a member of it. Usually a station on a through line would be associated with multiple Routeing Points or RP Groups.

To explain how this all works and interacts with each other would take a very long time, so I suggest you have a look at joining a Fares Workshop if you're interested in hearing more about that kind of thing!

As in, will changing at Farringdon (using NR services only) be legal?

That would certainly be one option but it is not the only one in this case.

From what I understand, as there are no walk links from Liverpool's Street Station towards Farringdon/KCX, and as the ticket is not valid on LU links, you can not draw a route without doublebacks using London

No walking links are required, as above you simply rely on the fact that LONDON is a mapped route and that the ticket is also routed "via London".

Obviously it's not intended to be used this way but until they change it (which they probably will fairly soon after reading this!) it is valid.

 

[walkingsophie]

No walking links are required, as above you simply rely on the fact that LONDON is a mapped route and that the ticket is also routed "via London".

According to RSPS5047, a journey is defined as a list of stations that you go through with additional information about each journey leg. Any journey from Tottenham Hale to Cambridge via the Stevenage line must have a LU leg, which means the journey is not valid with this without the split route

No such easement is needed. You can either rely on the fact that the ticket is routed "via London" and use the split route check, or you can refer to the Routeing Guide which lists LONDON as a mapped route combination. Either validates travel via Liverpool Street.

Doubling back is not inherently barred; it is allowed in quite a few situations. There are many fares such as this where it is not only permitted but envisaged - also see for example Watford to Manchester via London.

This is true, I did not realise that the split route check didn't bar doublebacks. However the split route check requires a routed fare to be "found invalid", which I would assume means no valid routes other than within 3 mile of shortest routes without the split route. Given the above, the split route does apply, which does make it valid via either route up to Cambridge.


Wow this is one confusion ticket, it is valid both ways up to Cambridge because otherwise it would be invalid both ways

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2026 ==

Actually, with the exact wording of 9.2.1.1

If a routed fare is found to be invalid, then the journey can be split at the via locations contained
in the route descriptor. Each part of the journey must follow a permitted route. If all part journeys
are permitted, then the routed fare is valid, and the journey is deemed to be “split for routeing”.

it seems like we would need to split the journey into two rather than combining a journey from Tottenham Hale to London and London to Cambridge, so I think it is not valid via Stevenage after all as going via Stevenage requires an underground leg

 

[Cowley]

The trip report is here:

Trip report from a Complicated Weekend

mods note - following on from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/complicated-journey-can-anyone-please-help-with-best-ticket-price.303503/unread Trip Report: I ended up finding a glitched itinerary via KCX to my original planned hiding spot on trainsplit that was only a couple...

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