Commuter knew better than apps

[arb]

Just because it cannot go into the booked platform, does not mean any particular alternative platform is certain and then CIS can not display an “or”.

I happened to be thinking about the problem of displaying "or" this morning, at Ely. The signalling at Ely is such that you can sometimes know a train will be going into either platform 1, or into platforms "2 or 3", before you know for sure which of 2 or 3 it will be using. Platforms 2 and 3 are different sides of the same island platform, across a subway from platform 1. In the event of a change from platform 1 to platform "2 or 3" it would be useful to start people moving to the platform 2/3 island before you know for sure which platform it will be using. Similarly at Cambridge, knowing a train is using platforms "1 or 4", or platforms "7 or 8", is useful even if you don't know for sure exactly which platform it will be.

One workaround for this problem might be to just pick (for Ely) either platform 2 or 3 at random at display it on the screens as soon as you can. That would get people moving to the correct area. If it turns out you've displayed the wrong platform, an additional last-minute change from, say, platform 2 to 3 is far less disruptive than a late change from 1 to 3. With more modern screens, you could easily add a simple visual indication that means "not 100% certain but you'll be in the right area if you move to that platform now", e.g. different colour, or different background colour, or put an asterisk next to the platform number - none of which require invasive changes to the overall layout of the screens.

A different workaround, involving much more infrastructure work (new signage etc.), might be to have platform areas, e.g. platform 1 is area A, and platforms 2 and.3 are area B. You could display "area B" before you knew for sure which of platforms 2 or 3 was going to be used.

Everything I've just said is, of course, useless where a train can still reach two different island platforms. But there must be many stations where it is useful.

 

[Tester]

This is very easily covered in many European countries by using a different word for the platform structure (e.g. quai in French) and the individual platform face (e.g. voie in French).

But good luck in introducing this here now

 

[Egg Centric]

One workaround for this problem might be to just pick (for Ely) either platform 2 or 3 at random at display it on the screens as soon as you can. That would get people moving to the correct area. If it turns out you've displayed the wrong platform, an additional last-minute change from, say, platform 2 to 3 is far less disruptive than a late change from 1 to 3. With more modern screens, you could easily add a simple visual indication that means "not 100% certain but you'll be in the right area if you move to that platform now", e.g. different colour, or different background colour, or put an asterisk next to the platform number - none of which require invasive changes to the overall layout of the screens.

It's a neat idea but I think that a system like this runs the risk of bringing platform alterations "into disrepute" - it's one thing to show the booked platform and have to change it, but if the display is continually changing then it'll probably end up being completely ignored.

 

[IanXC]

Most systems do both in reality. The base timetable is uploaded overnight and can be manually adjusted as required. However if alterations are picked up in the train describers for the relevant berths, then this will automatically update for platforms too.

The gripe appears to be that the latter is not doing this quickly enough automatically when the route provided makes the original timetables platform impossible.

The TD issue must have been addressed then as I've defiantly observed it in the past, and I think, read a reference to it in an RAIB report.

The routeing issue is definatley still out there though. There's plenty of places with a full Train Describer and S-Class data where platform alteration announcements are only triggered on arrival in the platform berth. For anywhere with S-Class data it is definitely possible to use it to give advance notice of such alterations, worst case the driver is stood at the last signal outside the station on a red, the route setting data will be available before the driver has a proceed aspect.

 

[Horizon22]

There's plenty of places with a full Train Describer and S-Class data where platform alteration announcements are only triggered on arrival in the platform berth.

Yes this is normally the main concern (or just 1 or 2 berths before).

 

[bramling]

Really? In my experience of this happening an announcement is made, and people then simply hurry across to the correct platform.

As noted above, getting CIS systems nationwide at all locations capable of detecting instantly where these alterations are made is likely to be either impossible, or unjustifiably expensive.

Just because the system isn’t perfect in every conceivable situation doesn’t mean it’s “very poor”.

There’s long been a problem at Finsbury Park where up GN or TL trains can get routed through platform 4, which doesn’t come up on the station CIS until the very last moment.

Amusingly this was never a massive “issue” until they started doing driver changes there!

I think the signallers now have an instruction not to alter the platforms here unless it’s strictly unavoidable.

In this instance, it doesn’t matter how early the signaller sets the route, the CIS will not report the change until the train has passed the junction signal.

I wonder how much expertise there actually is within the software industry to incorporate a change to recognise this sort of situation. Having worked (loosely) with the introduction of a software-based signalling system, the difficulty in getting this sort of thing right in practice is immense. Every single location will be subtly different, and I can well imagine it taking multiple attempts to get things right. Software engineers don’t come cheap…

Just one of those little facts of life I think, and a nice hack for those who are aware of and can interpret stuff like OTT maps. Why shouldn’t the more able in life get a cheeky benefit here and there?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Just read the first few posts. I've done this at Pad on a good Friday to Penzance. Thanks to Realtime, had a nice table for the 4 of us instead of standing..... !

 

[Horizon22]

Just read the first few posts. I've done this at Pad on a good Friday to Penzance. Thanks to Realtime, had a nice table for the 4 of us instead of standing..... !

This thread doesn’t really matter the same way to major terminal stations for which the platform is not routinely advertised far in advance and won’t change after being advertised unless there is issue like a late notice unit fault.

 

[Egg Centric]

There’s long been a problem at Finsbury Park where up GN or TL trains can get routed through platform 4, which doesn’t come up on the station CIS until the very last moment.

Amusingly this was never a massive “issue” until they started doing driver changes there!

I think the signallers now have an instruction not to alter the platforms here unless it’s strictly unavoidable.

In this instance, it doesn’t matter how early the signaller sets the route, the CIS will not report the change until the train has passed the junction signal.

I wonder how much expertise there actually is within the software industry to incorporate a change to recognise this sort of situation. Having worked (loosely) with the introduction of a software-based signalling system, the difficulty in getting this sort of thing right in practice is immense. Every single location will be subtly different, and I can well imagine it taking multiple attempts to get things right. Software engineers don’t come cheap…

Just one of those little facts of life I think, and a nice hack for those who are aware of and can interpret stuff like OTT maps. Why shouldn’t the more able in life get a cheeky benefit here and there?

Surely in that particular case the drivers ought to be capable of using live signalling feeds rather than using the CIS? Or is this too optimistic!

As for your latter point well that's the whole point of being more able isn't it? See also wealth.

 

[Horizon22]

Regarding the OP's original comment, the reason this is currently happening is due to a points issue at Ruscombe Junction, meaning it has to remain on the Relief Lines to Maidenhead before crossing.

That being said, I'd hope GWR had got round to replatforming this in advance, given this will have been going on for a few weeks.

 

[43066]

I wonder how much expertise there actually is within the software industry to incorporate a change to recognise this sort of situation. Having worked (loosely) with the introduction of a software-based signalling system, the difficulty in getting this sort of thing right in practice is immense. Every single location will be subtly different, and I can well imagine it taking multiple attempts to get things right. Software engineers don’t come cheap…

That’s certainly my impression. The current system works well *most* of the time, and I don’t get the sense changing it to make it perfectly responsive in every situation, or even just making it a little better than it is now, is going to be feasible.

Just one of those little facts of life I think, and a nice hack for those who are aware of and can interpret stuff like OTT maps. Why shouldn’t the more able in life get a cheeky benefit here and there?

Absolutely - that’s how I tend to look at it. These days people are often so wrapped up in their own little world that they will even miss the train arriving at the correct platform and then departing again! Therefore an announcement or a changed platform will still result in people missing the train (that isn’t to say the system shouldn’t be made as good as feasibly possible, of course).

Surely in that particular case the drivers ought to be capable of using live signalling feeds rather than using the CIS? Or is this too optimistic!

Some will, some won’t. You might have noticed drivers don’t tend to rush in the event of a short notice platform change, or in any situation, really, unless it’s their train home .

Joking aside, there are good reasons for this; you don’t want to rush and then end up making a mistake.

 

[Horizon22]

Some will, some won’t. You might have noticed drivers don’t tend to rush in the event of a short notice platform change, or in any situation, really, unless it’s their train home

Indeed. I am aware of many train crew opening up SignalMaps or Traksy during a bit of disruption at terminals.

 

[43066]

Indeed. I am aware of many train crew opening up SignalMaps or Traksy during a bit of disruption at terminals.

Indeed. Although I’m also often surprised by how many staff seem to have no idea that these sites exist. Obviously they aren’t “official”, but they’re incredibly useful nonetheless.

 

[Horizon22]

Obviously they aren’t “official”, but they’re incredibly useful nonetheless.

Well yes and they do of course come with the warning not to use the sites for any safety-critical decision making!

 

[Egg Centric]

Some will, some won’t. You might have noticed drivers don’t tend to rush in the event of a short notice platform change, or in any situation, really, unless it’s their train home .

Joking aside, there are good reasons for this; you don’t want to rush and then end up making a mistake.

I've absolutely no problem with drivers not rushing, they're not paid enough to do stuff like that. I'm just saying that there are better resources than CIS that they have access to and I'd hope as a matter of professionalism they'd be used when practical (without it being compulsory).

It's not at all unusual in any industry for people to not know basic stuff btw. It's apparently to people in this forum who are mostly rail enthusiasts how little rail staff know about things specifically of interest to enthusiasts but for example in my domain I am constantly surprised by some very basic stuff that I don't care about or need to know about in practice which I don't know and without blowing my own trumpet I am considered an expert. I would expect someone who was interested in particular aspects of it (hard to imagine tbh) to know way more than me about those specific aspects.

But in this case the rail industry could have easily trained on traksy. Sounds like it's been solved by changing regulation instructions though so...

 

[43066]

I'm just saying that there are better resources than CIS that they have access to and I'd hope as a matter of professionalism they'd be used when practical (without it being compulsory).

You’d be surprised; it’s generally a case of looking at platform screens and listening to announcements! Asking platform staff can help, but there’s nothing “official” to have recourse to.

It's not at all unusual in any industry for people to not know basic stuff btw. It's apparently to people in this forum who are mostly rail enthusiasts how little rail staff know about things specifically of interest to enthusiasts but for example in my domain I am constantly surprised by some very basic stuff that I don't care about or need to know about in practice which I don't know and without blowing my own trumpet I am considered an expert. I would expect someone who was interested in particular aspects of it (hard to imagine tbh) to know way more than me about those specific aspects.

Fair point. I’m both staff and an enthusiast so I probably lose sight of that myself. Many staff have zero interest in the railway.

 

[bramling]

I've absolutely no problem with drivers not rushing, they're not paid enough to do stuff like that. I'm just saying that there are better resources than CIS that they have access to and I'd hope as a matter of professionalism they'd be used when practical (without it being compulsory).

The problem is that there don’t seem to be official resources which are available, and there is a difficulty that if a driver were to look on something like OTT and then for whatever reason end up waiting in the wrong place, then a manager can say “well you shouldn’t have been using something unofficial, you should have been waiting in the correct place as per the timetable”.

It’s the same on LU. There’s resources like Trackernet, but then with riders like “not to be used for safety critical decisions”. Either it’s reliable or it isn’t.

Really it’s rather remiss that it seems to be down to enthusiasts to produce resources like this. I seem to remember that OTT maps was on screens on the platforms at King’s Cross for a while and being used by staff. Not really overly professional.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

That’s certainly my impression. The current system works well *most* of the time, and I don’t get the sense changing it to make it perfectly responsive in every situation, or even just making it a little better than it is now, is going to be feasible.

And this is exactly the problem. With modern software-based signalling systems you tend to end up with a load of bugs (to be fair not normally safety-related, or at least not directly). The immediate solution is someone produces either a list of restrictions, or a list of workarounds.

To correct stuff first of all someone needs to actually identify an issue, this then needs to be sifted out from a list of other “issues” that people have identified which actually aren’t. Then someone has to decide where this all sits contractually, and how much of a priority it is to fix amongst a long list of other things needing fixing. If you manage to cross all those hurdles and it actually gets to a software engineer, the next problem is whether you actually get a fix, get told you’re getting a fix but actually when it comes back the problem is still there, get told (rightly or wrongly) a fix just isn’t possible, or perhaps worst of all it comes back and tinkering with this issue has now created another problem that didn’t originally exist.

It doesn’t help when you’re dealing with suppliers whose attitude can be “send it over and we’ll have a look at it when we get round to it, invoice is in the post”. Worse once a contract has reached the point where the client has signed the product off as accepted, so any further alterations are essentially chargeable.

 

[greaterwest]

What you need, is what existed before these automated CIS systems came in. You need staff at key locations, with the local operational knowledge, who communicate with the Signallers, updating the CIS boards manually. Call them Station Supervisors.

This does in fact still happen at some locations on at least one commuter TOC.

 

[Haywain]

I seem to remember that OTT maps was on screens on the platforms at King’s Cross for a while and being used by staff

I suspect that what you saw was a very similar looking internal system called P2, which I know was used on monitors near the gatelines at Kings Cross.

 

[bramling]

I suspect that what you saw was a very similar looking internal system called P2, which I know was used on monitors near the gatelines at Kings Cross.

Definitely OTT! The address bar was visible at the top of the screen.

 

[Jamiescott1]

This morning the 0633 from maidenhead to Paddington (starting at Didcot) was showing on the screens at the station, the gwr app and real train times that it was going to depart from platform 2 (as it always does).
One very loud commuter told everyone that today it will depart from platform 4 and went and stood on platform 4.
At 0633, there was a last minute platform alteration and the train did depart from platform 4.
How did the commuter know this 10 minutes in advance. Is there a more accurate website he used ?

To follow this up. For the past 10 days in a row there's been a last minute platform alteration.

 

[Horizon22]

To follow this up. For the past 10 days in a row there's been a last minute platform alteration.

See my post above as to why.

That being said as a planned diversion, GWR should be getting this platform alteration straight in for start of service.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If it's planned, it should be automatically uploaded in the CIS systems in the first place

 

[Horizon22]

If it's planned, it should be automatically uploaded in the CIS systems in the first place

It's not part of the base timetable, so no it wouldn't.

Its 'planned' as in it is part of an ongoing, short/medium-term alteration.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It's not part of the base timetable, so no it wouldn't.

Its 'planned' as in it is part of an ongoing, short/medium-term alteration.

Most CIS systems include such changes. If they're in TRUST, they should be in all the systems downstream

 

[Horizon22]

Most CIS systems include such changes. If they're in TRUST, they should be in all the systems downstream

That depends on whether it has been actually built into the train plan as part of the STP timetable or not.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That depends on whether it has been actually built into the train plan as part of the STP timetable or not.

Indeed .

 

[greatkingrat]

Surely in that particular case the drivers ought to be capable of using live signalling feeds rather than using the CIS? Or is this too optimistic!

The relieving driver has probably already switched their phone off to comply with company policy!

 

[Surreytraveller]

The relieving driver has probably already switched their phone off to comply with company policy!

That's the problem. Passengers know what's going on better than the driver!