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Collision at Neville Hill Depot 16/09

Cell2025

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TPE still running via Methley
Yup, that's how we got there, but most trains around it were cancelled.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You can go via Harrogate, albeit slower.
A lot, lot slower, but thank you. Our one shot worked fine, and by the time we came back all was well.

As I originally mentioned, these things happen. It's just a pain when it affects you.
 
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staleydm01

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Northern were running York to Cross Gates, empty replatform via the new cross over and then back to York in the next path.

Only the Down line was closed to help the rerailing, the Up line was open.
Well yes, Transpennine got past Neville hill but taking all the cross gates people to platform 16 made connections really hard, I probably assume the new route hasn’t been made allowed to carry passengers, trains going to hull and you were cancelled enough that a bus Leeds to hull was running, didn’t think there was issues on both lines
 

Tractor37

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Well yes, Transpennine got past Neville hill but taking all the cross gates people to platform 16 made connections really hard, I probably assume the new route hasn’t been made allowed to carry passengers, trains going to hull and you were cancelled enough that a bus Leeds to hull was running, didn’t think there was issues on both lines
New route? The crossover after Cross Gates is purely for reversing moves back towards Garforth. The Down line (towards Garforth from Leeds) was closed. So eventually all the Northern trains from York and Hull would end up on the Leeds side of Neville Hill with no way to return until the line reopened after half past 3. Unless I have misunderstood your point.
 

staleydm01

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New route? The crossover after Cross Gates is purely for reversing moves back towards Garforth. The Down line (towards Garforth from Leeds) was closed. So eventually all the Northern trains from York and Hull would end up on the Leeds side of Neville Hill with no way to return until the line reopened after half past 3. Unless I have misunderstood your point.
Yet they didn’t want passengers on it when they already messed us around enough.
 

1D53

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Why would passengers want to be on an shunt move between platforms at Cross Gates?
 

skyhigh

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To get back to Garforth, the ones getting off having to wait for the next train wouldn’t be happy, after all the northern was late, made the Transpennine late, it didn’t do connections well
Maybe I'm missing something, but how would having passengers on during the shunt make any difference?
 

Undiscovered

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Maybe I'm missing something, but how would having passengers on during the shunt make any difference?
Generally it's frowned upon to have passengers on during shunt moves, unless all moves can be protected and signalled by main aspects.

It is permissible to shunt, with passengers on, using ground position/shunt signals, but requires authorisation from the Shift Signalling Manager. It's written in the rule boik.

Simplest procedure is to ECS the unit and shunt it empty.
 

greatkingrat

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Also from a practical perspective, you never know what might happen. If something goes wrong, a shunt which was expected to take a few minutes, you could end up stuck away from a platform with passengers on board for a prolonged period.
 

rower40

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All relevant signals at the Cross Gates new crossover are main. There’s a Fixed Red (not a Limit-of-Shunt) on the Down Hull line in the up direction.
 
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Generally it's frowned upon to have passengers on during shunt moves, unless all moves can be protected and signalled by main aspects.

It is permissible to shunt, with passengers on, using ground position/shunt signals, but requires authorisation from the Shift Signalling Manager. It's written in the rule boik.

Simplest procedure is to ECS the unit and shunt it empty.

That's a much better explanation than I got from the TM of a Virgin Pendolino, when the points failed in front of us at Crewe. The solution was to back out and come in on the opposite platform. We all had to get off because, and I quote the man verbatim, "We're not allowed to have passengers on the train if it's not in a station."
 

Annetts key

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There's some misunderstanding about shunt moves in this topic. If the signalling is to passenger standard (main signal aspects and appropriate overlaps, facing points have a facing point lock - FPL) then there is no need from a safety perspective to empty the train of passengers.

If the signalling is not to passenger standard, then the appropriate procedure should be followed. Unless there is already existing written instructions.
 

Merle Haggard

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As an aside, I was on a down MML HST that had a cab problem (horn stuck on) so t was turned. We were sent Cricklewood - Dudden Hill J (reverse) -Brent Curve J. For the facing move through a normally trailing crossover on the double track West of Dudden Hill a man on a motor bike (eventually!) arrived and clamped the facing point. Is that not now permitted?
 

800002

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As an aside, I was on a down MML HST that had a cab problem (horn stuck on) so t was turned. We were sent Cricklewood - Dudden Hill J (reverse) -Brent Curve J. For the facing move through a normally trailing crossover on the double track West of Dudden Hill a man on a motor bike (eventually!) arrived and clamped the facing point. Is that not now permitted?
It's the FPL *facing points lock that is the the main key, I believe, to the move. A passenger service must not traverse a set of facing points which are unsecured.

The act of the mom clipping and scotching the points secured them to the same degree as a FPL would have.

Cheaters/ special trains do this often, with prior arrangement.
 

Annetts key

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As an aside, I was on a down MML HST that had a cab problem (horn stuck on) so t was turned. We were sent Cricklewood - Dudden Hill J (reverse) -Brent Curve J. For the facing move through a normally trailing crossover on the double track West of Dudden Hill a man on a motor bike (eventually!) arrived and clamped the facing point. Is that not now permitted?
Officially (including in BR days) any point used in the facing direction that does not have a working FPL is suppose to be fitted with a point clip that clamps the switch rail to the stock rail to ensure that it cannot move under the train.

Such point clips can be fitted by appropriately trained engineering staff but these days, it's normally fitted by a MOM (Mobile Operations Manager). A posh name for the signalling grade that now effectively carries out some of the duties of hand-signallers and point operators.

They normally drive small vans, Toyota Hilux or similar road vehicles, but some have used motorcycles.

Unofficially, well that's something that has occasionally happened (hopefully only in the past), where the signaller allowed the train to pass over a point without a FPL...
 

Merle Haggard

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Officially (including in BR days) any point used in the facing direction that does not have a working FPL is suppose to be fitted with a point clip that clamps the switch rail to the stock rail to ensure that it cannot move under the train.

Such point clips can be fitted by appropriately trained engineering staff but these days, it's normally fitted by a MOM (Mobile Operations Manager). A posh name for the signalling grade that now effectively carries out some of the duties of hand-signallers and point operators.

They normally drive small vans, Toyota Hilux or similar road vehicles, but some have used motorcycles.

Unofficially, well that's something that has occasionally happened (hopefully only in the past), where the signaller allowed the train to pass over a point without a FPL...

Thanks, interesting.

And, as another aside, long ago now when I worked in a Divisional Accidents Section we had a mangled point clamp as an exhibit. Someone had struggled to fit the clamp underneath the rail for some reason, and decided it was much easier to put it on top. I have since heard that that approach was not unique
 

800002

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Someone had struggled to fit the clamp underneath the rail for some reason, and decided it was much easier to put it on top. I have since heard that that approach was not unique
There will always be someone who thinks outside the box, who should, infact, know better.

It would be more funny, if it weren't so serious.
One struggles to comprehend.
 

zwk500

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Maybe I'm missing something, but how would having passengers on during the shunt make any difference?
The rulebook states you must not depart a train in passenger service from the authority of a shunt signal (note a Permissive aspect on main signal is not considered a shunt signal) without published permission or if the Signaller instructs the driver to do so.

This is because a shunt signal does not prove the line is clear to the next signal and overlap, nor does it require the points to be fitted with FPLs. A shunt route may have a shorter overlap than normal or no overlap at all. A main aspect route must be clear through to the overlap and all points locked before it will show proceed, and a permissive aspect will prove the points are locked, and that only the expected section(s) of route are occupied before displaying proceed (I think, not a signalling engineer!).

It's possible for an instruction to be published in the Sectional Appendix, or in a specific Special Traffic Notice (and presumably other places as suits) for individual trains.
Also from a practical perspective, you never know what might happen. If something goes wrong, a shunt which was expected to take a few minutes, you could end up stuck away from a platform with passengers on board for a prolonged period.
Although this would be the same risk for a reversing movement made under main aspect signals, which is perfectly permissible to do with passengers on board.
Cheaters/ special trains do this often, with prior arrangement.
Yes, quite a lot of charters do need to get points clipped, usually for goods loops/lines. There was one particularly fiddly operation with a charter running several trips onto a goods line that needed points to a Yard clipping, but in between the trips a freight needed to enter or exit the yard (forget which). I felt quite sorry for the MOM who didn't have particularly long to unclip, get the freight through, and reclip it back up.
 

Annetts key

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The rulebook states you must not depart a train in passenger service from the authority of a shunt signal (note a Permissive aspect on main signal is not considered a shunt signal) without published permission or if the Signaller instructs the driver to do so.

This is because a shunt signal does not prove the line is clear to the next signal and overlap, nor does it require the points to be fitted with FPLs. A shunt route may have a shorter overlap than normal or no overlap at all. A main aspect route must be clear through to the overlap and all points locked before it will show proceed, and a permissive aspect will prove the points are locked, and that only the expected section(s) of route are occupied before displaying proceed (I think, not a signalling engineer!).

It's more complex. I'll split the subject up, as that makes it easier to explain.

Starting with the simpler(-ish) parts:

If the facing points are power operated and have a FPL, it doesn't matter which aspect / signal / route is used, the FPL will be used. So that will apply for main aspects and for shunt signals.

However, if the route is not the same as that available from a main signal aspect, in other words it diverges from a main signal aspect route, the facing points in this route may not have been fitted with a FPL. As there was no requirement in the past for points only used for freight/goods, empty stock or light engine trains / moves to have FPLs fitted.

Of course, the railway (BR in fact, before privatisation) moved the goalposts and decided that all new power operated points would have FPLs fitted as standard regardless. And if the machine was renewed, the new machine would be provided with a FPL. In addition, in some areas, on some lines, FPLs were fitted to existing point machines. Hence some lines/points used for freight/goods, empty stock or light engine trains are FPL fitted.

Note that often ground frame mechanical operated points or mechanical points operated from signal boxes were not upgraded, as this was more work and because more equipment was required, far more expensive.

Anyway, as a result, its now extremely difficult without access to railway information to know if facing points on a line that is not normally used for passenger trains are FPL fitted.

Okay, now signals and routes.

There are broadly three signal types:
  • Main aspect (red/yellow/double yellow, green)
  • Position Light (PL, calling on) signal associated with a main aspect signal head (two white lights at a 45% angle)
  • Elevated GPL
  • Ground Position Light (GPL)
Yes, that's a list of four, but the only difference between the last two is the type of head, the signal controls are the same.

The last three are all shunt signals. Normally, in service passenger trains are not signalled using any shunt signals. There are limited exceptions. For example, a Position Light aspect signal associated with a main aspect signal may be used when a DMU or EMU has to enter an already occupied platform line because that unit is planned to join (couple up) with a unit already in the platform. Note, if its not planned, then other steps are required before this move can be done.

For shunt signals including PL (associated with a main aspect) and GPL, a proceed aspect has a different meaning to a main aspect. When it's showing "off" (proceed) it's telling the driver that the train may pass the signal, but that the section of line may not be clear ahead, therefore the driver is to proceed at a suitable speed to stop short of a possible train ahead.

There is normally no requirement to prove that the next signal is lit.

Because the signal can show proceed with a train in section ahead of it, normally not all of the track circuits (or axle counter sections) are required to be proved clear. In some cases, the line may not have continuous track circuiting.

Points in the route will be set and proved just like with a main aspect. But points ahead of the next signal (regardless of type) may not be set or if set, proved. Indeed, normally overlaps are not provided.

Normal direct locking by the track circuit(s) or axle counter section(s) do apply, to electrically lock the route over the points when a train is on that track circuit(s) or axle counter section(s).

In addition, the route will only go to the next signal regardless of type. So if there is GPL before you get to a main signal, the route will only go to that GPL and no further.

Now compare to a main aspect, for example a signal showing a yellow aspect.

The requirements before the signal can clear are:
  • There must be no opposing or conflicting routes already set
  • The next signal must be proved to be lit
  • All track circuits and axle counter sections between this signal and the next signal must be proved to be clear. Plus the overlap track circuit(s) or axle counter section(s) must be proved to be clear. A normal overlap is 200 yards (183 metres), but in some cases, this can be reduced to 50 yards.
  • All points in the route and in the overlap must be set correctly and detected in the correct position (the overlap requirement may be relaxed in some cases).
  • Any GPLs between this signal and the next signal must be showing proceed.
As you can see, there are significant differences.

Yes, quite a lot of charters do need to get points clipped, usually for goods loops/lines. There was one particularly fiddly operation with a charter running several trips onto a goods line that needed points to a Yard clipping, but in between the trips a freight needed to enter or exit the yard (forget which). I felt quite sorry for the MOM who didn't have particularly long to unclip, get the freight through, and reclip it back up.
MOMs have much more work when manually operating and clipping failed power operated points at busy, major junctions.... Points may need to be moved before each train move over the junction!
The relief can be seen on their faces when a S&T faulting team arrives and fixes the problem ;)
 

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