Class 700 on Great Northern services

[miklcct]

I have travelled on the King's Cross - Cambridge stopping service a few times, sometimes for the whole journey, but recently the train on the service I took was an 8-car Thameslink Class 700 which made me disappointed as I was expecting a Class 387 on this route.

How common are Class 700 trains operating on Great Northern routes?

 

[alex_alexs28]

Hi,

I am commuting on this line daily and the 700’s are rare since the last timetable change. I am not able to say a certain number though. However, as an example, the 0634 from Hitchin to London Kings Cross was a Class 700 today.

They even took 387’s from GWR to be used on the line.

 

[miklcct]

Hi,

I am commuting on this line daily and the 700’s are rare since the last timetable change. I am not able to say a certain number though. However, as an example, the 0634 from Hitchin to London Kings Cross was a Class 700 today.

They even took 387’s from GWR to be used on the line.

Do you know that, if the line through Cambridge is closed, do the stopping and non-stop services interwork? On 28 October the return non-stop journey was, again, a Class 700 which was, in my opinion, totally inappropriate for a non-stop train between Royston and London.

Also, aren't Class 700 trains fast enough for the fast line usage on the East Coast Main Line? It is a 100 mph stock but the line speed is 125 mph. Won't these trains reduce line capacity compared to 110 mph Class 387 trains?

 

[Robski]

Out of 56 GN services with a 2C** headcode last Friday, 11 were operated by Class 700's and 44 were operated by Class 387's (1 unknown - presumed class 700 based on data for other days). This seems to be fairly consistent day-to-day.

Class 700 units can and do appear on any GN outer suburban service - including Ely/Kings Lynn services and Peterborough peak services - following the May 2023 timetable change, which introduced interworking between the 1T** and 2C** services. 700's are used because there aren't enough 387's to cover all GN services.

 

[bramling]

Hi,

I am commuting on this line daily and the 700’s are rare since the last timetable change. I am not able to say a certain number though. However, as an example, the 0634 from Hitchin to London Kings Cross was a Class 700 today.

They even took 387’s from GWR to be used on the line.

Since May there are only four 700/0 diagrams on the GN (discounting the Sevenoaks services of course). This is a reduction from eight in May 18. As predicted, they do cover for 700/1 quite often on the through Thameslink services as well.

The exact reason for this reduction isn’t entirely clear, though a number of possibilities have been suggested. It does seem a bit odd to be leasing extra 387s when 700/0s are having their usage reduced though. Having a few spare 700/0 to cover for unavailable 700/1s does certainly seem to be helping reliability, as predicted there are fewer cancellations due to no ok trains now, albeit 8 vice 12.

No idea if the longer term plan is to ditch GN 700/0 operation altogether when the various 387 modifications are completed, though increasing the 387 requirement by 8 is quite a stretch, as well as the crewing implications.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was a thread in this forum only last week that included a list of GN 700 diagrams:

GN Class 387/700 current diagrams

Hi, I am wondering if anyone knows which Great Northern services from Kings Lynn/Cambridge to London KGX are worked by 700s instead of the normal 387s? Also which units do they have on loan from other TOC's? Any info is appreciated as I am currently creating a scenario for Train Simulator on...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

At least using class 700s means the train is an 8-car. I wouldn't put it past GTR to try and use 4-car 387s. It was mentioned elsewhere that EMR are using 4-car 360s 360s on Sundays from December....

 

[bramling]

At least using class 700s means the train is an 8-car. I wouldn't put it past GTR to try and use 4-car 387s. It was mentioned elsewhere that EMR are using 4-car 360s 360s on Sundays from December....

I have wondered about this. I suspect that if we didn’t have the interworking between the 2Cxx and 1Txx services then we’d already have quite likely seen a few 4-car diagrams creep in. The Ely and Kings Lynn fast services seem to be fairly established as minimum 8-car nowadays, indeed the various GN franchises seem to have always gone out of their way to please Cambridge.

I’m actually quite surprised we *haven’t* seen a return to some 4-car working, though with the perennial shortage of drivers it would be rather silly to be wasting driver resource in that way.

 

[Magdalia]

Do you know that, if the line through Cambridge is closed, do the stopping and non-stop services interwork?

Saturdays yes, Sundays no, as per the normal timetable. That's necessary to avoid disturbing the platform workings at Kings Cross.

Won't these trains reduce line capacity compared to 110 mph Class 387 trains?

No. Class 387s do not operate at 110mph on the GN. Occupation of line capacity for classes 387 and 700 on the GN is the same.

It is a 100 mph stock but the line speed is 125 mph.

Only 125mph between Woolmer Green and Hitchin, where the Cambridge trains turn off the main line. That's a distance of about 8 miles, and the time saving from running above 100mph over such a short distance is tiny.

Since May there are only four 700/0 diagrams on the GN (discounting the Sevenoaks services of course). This is a reduction from eight in May 18. As predicted, they do cover for 700/1 quite often on the through Thameslink services as well.

The exact reason for this reduction isn’t entirely clear

Interworking of 1Txx and 2Cxx/2Rxx gives a more efficient utilisation of stock, especially by reducing layovers at Kings Cross. Also, prior to the change, there was some slack in the class 387 diagrams, and interworking has enabled that slack to be used.

 

[Robski]

Saturdays yes, Sundays no, as per the normal timetable. That's necessary to avoid disturbing the platform workings at Kings Cross.

They do interwork on engineering Sundays, it happens at Royston instead of Kings Cross.

 

[bramling]

Saturdays yes, Sundays no, as per the normal timetable. That's necessary to avoid disturbing the platform workings at Kings Cross.


No. Class 387s do not operate at 110mph on the GN. Occupation of line capacity for classes 387 and 700 on the GN is the same.


Only 125mph between Woolmer Green and Hitchin, where the Cambridge trains turn off the main line. That's a distance of about 8 miles, and the time saving from running above 100mph over such a short distance is tiny.


Interworking of 1Txx and 2Cxx/2Rxx gives a more efficient utilisation of stock, especially by reducing layovers at Kings Cross. Also, prior to the change, there was some slack in the class 387 diagrams, and interworking has enabled that slack to be used.

I get that there was some slack, but the GN fleet is now something like 10x more 387s than was the case in May 18 (I realise some units are out for mods). That’s quite a few extra units to be being leased whilst 700/0s are essentially being sidelined.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not complaining as I prefer 387s, just it seems rather strange. It’s also slightly frustrating that there’s little tangible to show for it in the form of reinstated services, for example the Baldocks.

 

[Magdalia]

I get that there was some slack, but the GN fleet is now something like 10x more 387s than was the case in May 18

8 car trains calling all stations in the Fens only started in December 2020. The first red class 387s on the GN were in May 2021.

 

[bramling]

8 car trains calling all stations in the Fens only started in December 2020. The first red class 387s on the GN were in May 2021.

I don’t think Kings Lynn 8 car increased the requirements that much. There was already a certain amount of slack from what I remember.

 

[Magdalia]

I don’t think Kings Lynn 8 car increased the requirements that much. There was already a certain amount of slack from what I remember.

The December 2018 class 387 diagrams were for 26 units, one of which was idle at Hornsey SX. Only 1 of the 5 starters from Lynn was a pair. An extra siding was built at Kings Lynn for the 2020 changes, so that the number of units stabling overnight could be increased from 6 to 8. But the number of starters also had to be reduced from 5 to 4 by timetabling an extra morning arrival and an extra evening departure, adding 2 more units. I calculate that the December 2020 Fen Line changes increased the requirement by 4 units.

 

[bramling]

The December 2018 class 387 diagrams were for 26 units, one of which was idle at Hornsey SX. Only 1 of the 5 starters from Lynn was a pair. An extra siding was built at Kings Lynn for the 2020 changes, so that the number of units stabling overnight could be increased from 6 to 8. But the number of starters also had to be reduced from 5 to 4 by timetabling an extra morning arrival and an extra evening departure, adding 2 more units. I calculate that the December 2020 Fen Line changes increased the requirement by 4 units.

I’m quite curious to work this all out, however without having time to look at the moment would it not have been the case that the extra units stabling at Kings Lynn would merely have taken the place of units which hitherto started from Cambridge and attached there? Naturally it’s not easy to compare like for like because of Covid.

Nonetheless, there has also been a reduction in the amount of 387 peak work to Peterborough. From memory May 18 had six 387 units stable at Nene, but nowadays only one of the peak Peterborough extras is 387s, and that’s nowadays only an 8-car IIRC. So that would be your four extra 387s.

So unless there is a desire to minimise 700 work on the Cambridge fasts, I still can’t really see what’s going on here. Unless there is a view that the 700 availability has remained sufficiently poorer than anticipated (is it?) that they need the extra units as contingency. Remember there’s also a 700/1 freed up by ditching Littlehampton.

 

[Failed Unit]

I’m quite curious to work this all out, however without having time to look at the moment would it not have been the case that the extra units stabling at Kings Lynn would merely have taken the place of units which hitherto started from Cambridge and attached there? Naturally it’s not easy to compare like for like because of Covid.

Nonetheless, there has also been a reduction in the amount of 387 peak work to Peterborough. From memory May 18 had six 387 units stable at Nene, but nowadays only one of the peak Peterborough extras is 387s, and that’s nowadays only an 8-car IIRC. So that would be your four extra 387s.

So unless there is a desire to minimise 700 work on the Cambridge fasts, I still can’t really see what’s going on here. Unless there is a view that the 700 availability has remained sufficiently poorer than anticipated (is it?) that they need the extra units as contingency. Remember there’s also a 700/1 freed up by ditching Littlehampton.

If you look at some of the older editions of Modern Railways I believe this is definitely the case. I think they were expecting them to have the class 321 levels of availability (when they were hitting the 40000 miles per failure mark). The 700s are around 17000 I think. Yes they are longer units, but I don’t think anywhere near the procurement expectations (A bit like the IET).

If full Thameslink had happened i suspect we would have had lots of extra cancellations. As useful as the “2C’s“ Going into the core would be, watching the Hitchin - Peterborough service collapse so often I am glad they didn’t. Now how can they get all the 700s off the Kings / Lynn and local services. I suspect the crunch will come when the passenger numbers increase and the extra services are needed again.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Do you know that, if the line through Cambridge is closed, do the stopping and non-stop services interwork? On 28 October the return non-stop journey was, again, a Class 700 which was, in my opinion, totally inappropriate for a non-stop train between Royston and London.

In what way? Its a commuter route and the 700 is a predominantly commuter style train?

 

[Magdalia]

would it not have been the case that the extra units stabling at Kings Lynn would merely have taken the place of units which hitherto started from Cambridge and attached there?

No. And bear in mind that in December 2020 GN also took over various paths in the Fens that were previously operated by Greater Anglia, and operated them with 8 car trains.

It is only a slight exaggeration to say that the GN Fen Line peak hour service went from 1tph with 4 cars to 2tph with 8 cars.

From memory May 18 had six 387 units stable at Nene, but nowadays only one of the peak Peterborough extras is 387s, and that’s nowadays only an 8-car IIRC.

Yes that's right. The class 387 SX overnight berthing in December 2018 was:

Hornsey 4
Letchworth 2
Cambridge 8
Kings Lynn 6
Peterborough 6

So unless there is a desire to minimise 700 work on the Cambridge fasts, I still can’t really see what’s going on here.

The current diagrams suggest this is the objective, in particular there being only 2 SX class 700 workings to Kings Lynn. And the diagram that is booked to lay over at Cambridge between the peaks is a class 700.