Class 350

[sd0733]

So if the XX:49 EUS>BHM is timed for 110 to Northampton, which service from BHM runs at 110 on the way to EUS? Also are all the Trent Valley workings to/From CRE booked 110? Just wondering as yet to sample one of these and want to at some point. I agree though that the public most certainly do notice the qualitty or lack of, of the stock they travel on, q endless moans when 185s first started going to Scotland. ↲

All the off-peak services from Crewe (07:55-18:02) and from Euston (07:46-16:46) are booked 110mph 350/1s and consistently do 110mph south of Rugby. Some of the services outside those hours are booked for 350/2s though so a max 100mph.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks. Appreciate that!

 

[91103eastcoast]

provided it was being operated with 350/1 units only...

Ahh.. forgot about the /2s!

 

[fowler9]

Yes there were 323s - before Central joined the Liverpool and Stansted services and went diesel throughout.
2+3 323s on Birmingham-Liverpool were definitely downmarket (but then they also used 310s on Birmingham-Manchester for a while).
2+3 350/2s aren't much better, but 350/1 are as good as anything previous and can do 110mph if they want.

The trouble with the current service is the hanging around at Crewe southbound, only to get caught up in congestion later.
One service is turned slow line at Wavertree and back at Speke just to avoid Allerton Jn, and the other is now timed to use the slow line (at least now 100mph) between Crewe and Stafford.
And (compared to the Manchester run) they stop at Penkridge and Coseley or Galton Bridge.
These trains invariably lose time in the West Midlands, but have time to kill north of Stafford.

Fair enough mate. I just simply do not ever recall seeing a central trains 323 on a service to Liverpool, and the line from Lime Street to South Parkway is at the bottom of my garden so I see a fair bit of what goes past regularly.

Regarding the 350/1's I got one from South Parkway in to town after work tonight. It was crush loaded and had one working toilet between four carriages. I had to wait till Lime Street. not quite what I'd call as good as anything that has gone before. Not bad for my ten minute journey tonight though.

 

[Silverlinky]

All the off-peak services from Crewe (07:55-18:02) and from Euston (07:46-16:46) are booked 110mph 350/1s and consistently do 110mph south of Rugby. Some of the services outside those hours are booked for 350/2s though so a max 100mph.

xx33 from New Street, they get to Northampton around xx35 then leave at xx50 to Euston, stopping at MK and WFJ, usually 110 mph.
With these though they don't usually get on the fast line on the up until Ledburn Junction, whereas on the down they run to MK on the fast.

 

[Yew]

Funnily enough, I've heard people refer to the Liverpool-Birmingham service as "like Merseyrail". I have a soft spot for Class 350s, if only because of that fun, spaceship whine they make, but really, Liverpool-Birmingham should be an intercity service, not a regional express one. Another big thank you to the Strategic Rail Authority for that one.

With proper regional express stock it would be fine, but the doors are in the wrong place on the 350's

 

[87019Chris]

With proper regional express stock it would be fine, but the doors are in the wrong place on the 350's

This is because they were designed to take large numbers of London commuters not people traveling between Liverpool and Birmingham

 

[fowler9]

Got a 350/2 on an earlier service today. It must have been pretty horrible for a long journey to be honest, three plus two seating and again only one of the toilets working, again not the disabled access toilet. What are the rules on numbers of toilets and actually having no disabled access ones on longish distance trains? They are certainly, at least in my opinion, not an improvement on went before,

 

[AM9]

This is because they were designed to take large numbers of London commuters not people traveling between Liverpool and Birmingham

Surely, (according to some) London commuters command (and get) better trains for just short journeys to work than inter-city travellers do up north!

 

[fowler9]

Surely, (according to some) London commuters command (and get) better trains for just short journeys to work than inter-city travellers do up north!

I don't get what you are saying, they were designed to carry commuters on short journies down south where they are used and up in Liverpool at least we get them on long distance services where they are used.

 

[notadriver]

What's the time difference between a VT service from Liverpool to Euston and using an LM service changing at Birmingham?

Maybe a class 172 type train would be an ideal replacement for the 159s on the Exeter lines. They have a bit more power and 6 gears gives them better acceleration.

 

[sd0733]

You don't go to Birmingham on LMs from Liverpool to london, its much quicker to change at Stafford, then its:
Xx:34 liverpool- stafford arrive xx:41 (1h 7)
Xx:56 Stafford-Euston arrive xx:50 (1h 54)
So in total its 3 hours 16 mins on the LM including connection.

On Virgin its around 2 hours 18 looking at the timings so just under an hours difference but on a Super-off peak, around a 1/3rd of the price.

 

[notadriver]

Thanks for that. Are the timings similar in the opposite direction ?

 

[sd0733]

Its a little bit slower as the connection at Stafford is poor:
Its xx:46 euston-stafford xx:35 (1h 49)
Xx:10 stafford-liverpool xx:10 (1h)

So around 3h24 in total.

In December we've been told that there will be a major timetable recast with Liverpool-London direct in the peaks do if that does happen it could knock 30mins off the timings and make it a little more competitive with the Virgin timings.
Going back to the 350s themselves a lot of passengers say they prefer them to the Virgin stock as they get more room and a better view out, although for all I know they could all be enthusiasts who just have gripes over the pendos.
The 350s are a bit of a compromise really on the route as they act as mass people movers out of Birmingham towards Wolves and Stafford and again from Crewe towards local stops and Liverpool where they become very busy but also cater for the longer distance market, a lot more people use Brum-liverpool for connections at Crewe etc than they do for the through journey and there is always the option of VT to Stafford and XC into Birmingham . Whilst not perfect for the route, a few issues (toilets and luggage space mainly IMHO) aside they are pretty good units to be fair.

 

[martinsh]

Regarding the 350/1's I got one from South Parkway in to town after work tonight. It was crush loaded and had one working toilet between four carriages. .

That's more working toilets than there are normally !:roll:

 

[AM9]

I don't get what you are saying, they were designed to carry commuters on short journies down south where they are used and up in Liverpool at least we get them on long distance services where they are used.

You obviously didn't notice the smiley.
However, the trains with their 1/3,2/3 door layout are standard for some or all journeys like London to Birmingham, London to Crewe, London to Weymouth, London to Norwich over which part of the route serves relatively (in London terms) high density commuter traffic. See post by sd0733 on how the Liverpool Birmingham route provides mixed commuter/medium distance service just like the stock's role with London origins/destinations. Passengers who want to save money by using a double ended service as LM offer can expect to get stock appropriate to its primary role.
So when other parts of the UK gets the same modern Siemens stock as London, there are still complaints!

 

[fowler9]

You obviously didn't notice the smiley.
However, the trains with their 1/3,2/3 door layout are standard for some or all journeys like London to Birmingham, London to Crewe, London to Weymouth, London to Norwich over which part of the route serves relatively (in London terms) high density commuter traffic. See post by sd0733 on how the Liverpool Birmingham route provides mixed commuter/medium distance service just like the stock's role with London origins/destinations. Passengers who want to save money by using a double ended service as LM offer can expect to get stock appropriate to its primary role.
So when other parts of the UK gets the same modern Siemens stock as London, there are still complaints!

Ha ha, sorry mate, I did miss the smiley. I think they are quite nice units The thing is, and it is a personal opinion, I don't think they are nicer than anything that has gone before. They are indeed a compromise but such is life.

Still not happy there was only 1 loo working, especially as at South Parkway with its 3 toilets one wasn't working and the other two had queues outside them. I ended up paying to pee at Lime Street.

 

[AM9]

Ha ha, sorry mate, I did miss the smiley. I think they are quite nice units The thing is, and it is a personal opinion, I don't think they are nicer than anything that has gone before. They are indeed a compromise but such is life.

Still not happy there was only 1 loo working, especially as at South Parkway with its 3 toilets one wasn't working and the other two had queues outside them. I ended up paying to pee at Lime Street.

Indeed they are compromises. The problem for towns and cities outside London is that the total volume of passenger does not justify the three types of stock, i.e. Metro trains for journeys less than 30-45 mins., outer suburban trains for journeys over 1 hour and regional express stock for longer journeys and leisure trips where passengers may be families with luggage. Take Liverpool for instance, you have Pendolinos for the longer journeys south, and 350s for all other traffic. Note that I'm not counting pacers and sprinters, because someday soon they will have less importance on commuter lines in the north.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You obviously didn't notice the smiley.
However, the trains with their 1/3,2/3 door layout are standard for some or all journeys like London to Birmingham, London to Crewe, London to Weymouth, London to Norwich over which part of the route serves relatively (in London terms) high density commuter traffic. See post by sd0733 on how the Liverpool Birmingham route provides mixed commuter/medium distance service just like the stock's role with London origins/destinations. Passengers who want to save money by using a double ended service as LM offer can expect to get stock appropriate to its primary role.
So when other parts of the UK gets the same modern Siemens stock as London, there are still complaints!

London-Weymouth is doors at the ends (class 444) AFAIK 450s only get used on the route at peak times

 

[AM9]

London-Weymouth is doors at the ends (class 444) AFAIK 450s only get used on the route at peak times

There were posts on this forum that both the Portsmouth and Weymouth services having a fairly even mix of 444s and 450s so that the Alton line get some of them. Apparently it's all done to balance up the mileage for the maintenance contract. Some of the fastest trains are 450s. As I said above, it's just like 1/3, 2/3 door stock being used on some of the WCML routes and the GEML to Norwich (360s).
To be honest, I think that the layout is of less importance for long distance than it is for high density.

 

[Mojo]

09:07 departure from Manchester arrives in Birmingham at 10:33
09:04 departure from Liverpool arrives in Birmingham at 10:47

The former doesn't include a call at Macclesfield and the latter doesn't call at Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford so they could both be considered 'fast' services.

So the Liverpool service takes 17 minutes longer than the Manchester service.

A Liverpool service that you have selected takes 17 Min longer. During the day the xx01 from Birmingham to Liverpool takes 1 Hr 41 Min and the xx36 from Birmingham to Liverpool takes 1 Hr 34 Min. The xx31 from Birmingham to Manchester takes 1 Hr 28 Min and the xx57 from Birmingham to Manchester takes 1 Hr 38 Min. Given the slight longer distance to Liverpool, plus the fact that the Liverpool trains call at more locations, and are not operated by a long-distance operator, I maintain my stance.

 

[TEW]

There were posts on this forum that both the Portsmouth and Weymouth services having a fairly even mix of 444s and 450s so that the Alton line get some of them. Apparently it's all done to balance up the mileage for the maintenance contract. Some of the fastest trains are 450s. As I said above, it's just like 1/3, 2/3 door stock being used on some of the WCML routes and the GEML to Norwich (360s).
To be honest, I think that the layout is of less importance for long distance than it is for high density.

Portsmouth is a pretty even mix of 444s and 450s on Weekdays. Saturdays it is nearly all 450s, Sundays the majority are 444s. Weymouth is mostly 444s but there are a few more 450 workings now. It's still only around 5 or 6 450 workings to Weymouth a day though. Alton only has a handful of 444 workings.

 

[Techniquest]

It was never 323's, I can't recall 158's on it, before 170's it was loco hauled Mk2D's etc. or an HST. Most of the services were Inter City. You obviously can't remember Liverpool before it was downgraded to a branch off the WCML. Ha ha.

I wasn't on the scene way back when, indeed my first visit to Liverpool wasn't until April 2004. ATW 158 up to Crewe for 90001 to Liverpool, off to Birkenhead after that before returning a couple of hours later (I went up there with family for non-cranking reasons to be fair) and getting 87004 to Crewe for a 158 home. August 2004 was the TTF meet but we still didn't do a lot in Liverpool itself. Can't remember when my first proper major cranking spree in Liverpool was, but it was quite some time after that.

Couldn't tell you much about it all back then, it took a long time to expand my horizons away from the heavily South Wales focused days when I started in late 2003.

 

[fowler9]

I wasn't on the scene way back when, indeed my first visit to Liverpool wasn't until April 2004. ATW 158 up to Crewe for 90001 to Liverpool, off to Birkenhead after that before returning a couple of hours later (I went up there with family for non-cranking reasons to be fair) and getting 87004 to Crewe for a 158 home. August 2004 was the TTF meet but we still didn't do a lot in Liverpool itself. Can't remember when my first proper major cranking spree in Liverpool was, but it was quite some time after that.

Couldn't tell you much about it all back then, it took a long time to expand my horizons away from the heavily South Wales focused days when I started in late 2003.

I really enjoyed your last trip report on Merseyside. I think I said before that I was really amused that you thought Mossley Hill looked a bit ropey. To be honest from the platform it doesn't look much. On both sides of the station are old industrial sites, one is now a gym (Used to be a huge garage) on the other is an older warehouse that is currently Continuous Data Print but during the war was used to store Barrage Balloons.Within seconds of leaving the station you are in an area where the great and the good used to live in massive houses, many now appartments. Heading away from Liverpool is mostly post war development, but very nice and houses of the larger size.

 

[Techniquest]

And hopefully I'll be making another trip to Merseyside later this year. I was due to go up there tomorrow but I've got to make budget cuts this month

 

[fowler9]

And hopefully I'll be making another trip to Merseyside later this year. I was due to go up there tomorrow but I've got to make budget cuts this month

Ah tell me about it. Here's your mate. Had to pay for my trip to the low countries in October this month leaving me £30 to play with for 2 weeks. Still, food, travel to work (And anywhere else in zone C1) and the roof over my head is paid for so not complaining. Give me a shout if you are up later in the year and I'll join you if I'm not in work.

 

[northwichcat]

A Liverpool service that you have selected takes 17 Min longer. During the day the xx01 from Birmingham to Liverpool takes 1 Hr 41 Min and the xx36 from Birmingham to Liverpool takes 1 Hr 34 Min. The xx31 from Birmingham to Manchester takes 1 Hr 28 Min and the xx57 from Birmingham to Manchester takes 1 Hr 38 Min. Given the slight longer distance to Liverpool, plus the fact that the Liverpool trains call at more locations, and are not operated by a long-distance operator, I maintain my stance.

You were talking about southbound services before and making the claim that are only slightly slower despite people classing Liverpool-Birmingham services as stopping services and Manchester-Birmingham as express services.

Given that Birmingham is roughly equidistant by rail from both Liverpool and Manchester, it is interesting that these "commuter" services from Liverpool are only a couple of minutes slower than the "InterCity" services from Manchester. And I know which rolling stock I'd rather travel on for such a journey...

But now you're talking about northbound services and giving an allowance for Liverpool services calling at more stations. You seem to be struggling to back up your original claim.

And no it's not 1 service I selected that's slow. The 10:04, 11:04, 12:04 etc. all have the same journey time to Birmingham.

In fact I actually made a mistake in saying the Manchester-Birmingham service which omits Macclesfield is the slow one it's 5 minutes faster which makes the fastest southbound Liverpool-Birmingham a whole 22 minutes slower than the fastest southbound Manchester-Birmingham service and that's most hours not just 1 service.