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Christmas Day Bus Services for London

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Robertj21a

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Well there are always choices aren't there? Putting to one side actual or perceived injustices about bus fares elsewhere in the UK you need to consider whether the London bus network has a value or not. Listening to some politicians you'd think it didn't exist never mind have any value. There is certainly little positive recognition that it's the busiest public transport mode, based on daily journeys made, in London. Most people would say it was the Tube but even on its busiest day the bus network carries 50% more journeys.

Where we have got to after 8 years of Boris is pretty much an end to the growth in patronage, barely any network development, revenue below budget and target and people deserting buses because of chronic traffic congestion (some caused by TfL's own schemes). Oh and bus fares up 66% over those 8 years. Londoners may well be "spoilt" compared to what other bus users have to tolerate but there is little appetite for higher fares (see the report I linked to in a reply to Mr Adamfi) and the system can't cope with population growth in some parts of London. We were just about to start seeing some extra funding coming on line to grow services and provide new links and add capacity. The Chancellor's cuts put all that at very serious risk.

My view is that the bus network is at a tipping point. You could make it commercial overnight but the consequences would be appalling. Frequencies would be slashed, fares would soar, routes would go leaving people without transport in some areas, traffic congestion would soar and the tube and rail networks would not cope with the diverted traffic. TfL wouldn't have a funding problem with buses but it (and the Boroughs) would have one heck of a problem on the roads and rails. Such a fundamental change would almost certainly be politically calamitous for whoever was in charge and it would hit Central Government too because London would cease to work properly and that has consequences for the economy and how the UK is perceived by potential investors.

Now you could probably keep pushing fares up on the buses but let's be clear that it wouldn't go to fund Christmas Day bus services. It would simply go to cover the loss of revenue grant or to somehow improve the network. If people were given the option of making their services better on 364 days of the year or adding buses on 1 day a year then I think they'd go for the first option. Unless whoever the next Mayor is makes it a manifesto commitment to have Christmas Day buses then they're simply not going to happen.

I expect bus fares will keep going up regardless of who becomes Mayor. Labour's fares freeze proposals will be completely discredited by the time we get to the election. The Tories quite clearly have it in their line of fire already and it will remain there until it has been completely trashed in the minds of the voters. They did it with Ken back in 2012 when he had very similar proposals to Mr Khan and people didn't believe it then. Given the failure of Labour to win nationally because of a lack of economic credibility then continuing with unfinanceable commitments in London is a serious error (IMO of course). Why give your opponents such easy things to attack?

Quite agree with all you write and there was no suggestion on my part of changing to a commercial system. London does have special requirements which do not apply to any other part of the UK and that has been handled well by TfL. My suggestion was only that the 'very cheap' bus fares could be increased slightly - just 5p or 10p would contribute a good deal.
 
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radamfi

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Quite agree with all you write and there was no suggestion on my part of changing to a commercial system. London does have special requirements which do not apply to any other part of the UK and that has been handled well by TfL. My suggestion was only that the 'very cheap' bus fares could be increased slightly - just 5p or 10p would contribute a good deal.

Is there a particular city size that requires "special requirements"? London may well be much bigger than anywhere else in the UK but that doesn't mean there aren't any other big cities in the UK. We have two urban areas with populations of over 2 million. Cities outside the UK with much less than that enjoy world class transport systems.
 

Robertj21a

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Is there a particular city size that requires "special requirements"? London may well be much bigger than anywhere else in the UK but that doesn't mean there aren't any other big cities in the UK. We have two urban areas with populations of over 2 million. Cities outside the UK with much less than that enjoy world class transport systems.

I never suggested that there weren't any other big cities in the UK - indeed, I go to most of them quite regularly !

I don't like the idea that London should receive any 'special treatment' but the fact of the matter is that it is necessary as, within the UK, 1) it has much greater passenger numbers, day and night and 2) it is still a regulated operation.
 

deltic

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8 Feb 2010
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3,719
Well there are always choices aren't there? Putting to one side actual or perceived injustices about bus fares elsewhere in the UK you need to consider whether the London bus network has a value or not. Listening to some politicians you'd think it didn't exist never mind have any value. There is certainly little positive recognition that it's the busiest public transport mode, based on daily journeys made, in London. Most people would say it was the Tube but even on its busiest day the bus network carries 50% more journeys.

Where we have got to after 8 years of Boris is pretty much an end to the growth in patronage, barely any network development, revenue below budget and target and people deserting buses because of chronic traffic congestion (some caused by TfL's own schemes). Oh and bus fares up 66% over those 8 years. Londoners may well be "spoilt" compared to what other bus users have to tolerate but there is little appetite for higher fares (see the report I linked to in a reply to Mr Adamfi) and the system can't cope with population growth in some parts of London. We were just about to start seeing some extra funding coming on line to grow services and provide new links and add capacity. The Chancellor's cuts put all that at very serious risk.

My view is that the bus network is at a tipping point. You could make it commercial overnight but the consequences would be appalling. Frequencies would be slashed, fares would soar, routes would go leaving people without transport in some areas, traffic congestion would soar and the tube and rail networks would not cope with the diverted traffic. TfL wouldn't have a funding problem with buses but it (and the Boroughs) would have one heck of a problem on the roads and rails. Such a fundamental change would almost certainly be politically calamitous for whoever was in charge and it would hit Central Government too because London would cease to work properly and that has consequences for the economy and how the UK is perceived by potential investors.

Now you could probably keep pushing fares up on the buses but let's be clear that it wouldn't go to fund Christmas Day bus services. It would simply go to cover the loss of revenue grant or to somehow improve the network. If people were given the option of making their services better on 364 days of the year or adding buses on 1 day a year then I think they'd go for the first option. Unless whoever the next Mayor is makes it a manifesto commitment to have Christmas Day buses then they're simply not going to happen.

I expect bus fares will keep going up regardless of who becomes Mayor. Labour's fares freeze proposals will be completely discredited by the time we get to the election. The Tories quite clearly have it in their line of fire already and it will remain there until it has been completely trashed in the minds of the voters. They did it with Ken back in 2012 when he had very similar proposals to Mr Khan and people didn't believe it then. Given the failure of Labour to win nationally because of a lack of economic credibility then continuing with unfinanceable commitments in London is a serious error (IMO of course). Why give your opponents such easy things to attack?

While I tend to agree with your comments there are parts of the city which are way overbussed and services could be reduced without having much impact but no where near enough to reducing the £500m deficit without some hefty fare increases. Perhaps the time has come to move to touching in and out on bus services and getting rid of the flat fare system. This would make short hop fares cheaper and longer distance fares more expensive
 

Deerfold

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Well there are always choices aren't there? Putting to one side actual or perceived injustices about bus fares elsewhere in the UK you need to consider whether the London bus network has a value or not. Listening to some politicians you'd think it didn't exist never mind have any value. There is certainly little positive recognition that it's the busiest public transport mode, based on daily journeys made, in London. Most people would say it was the Tube but even on its busiest day the bus network carries 50% more journeys.

Don't forget to take account of how journeys are counted.

On a bus, it's from getting on a bus to getting off a bus.

On the tube, it's from entering the system to leaving the system, no matter how many changes have been made.
 

Be3G

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14 Sep 2012
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1,599
Location
Chingford
We actually have to let the Panel meet next week and see what they decide. They may opt to request more work is done to develop the costs and likely network scope to confirm the business case position or they may ask for work to stop. Unfortunately the next Panel won't be until early 2016 (based on the typical pattern of these meetings).

Sadly the panel have decided to not progress any Christmas Day service plans. :(
 
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