Changing the Southeastern metro timetable so it ACTUALLY does good than my old proposal

[Krystal]

2tph Cannon Street <-> Bromley North (crosses between fast and slow line south of Hither Green, calling at all stops en route)
2tph Victoria <-> Dartford via Bexleyheath (truncated from Gravesend)
2tph Victoria <-> Orpington via Beckenham Junction
4tph Charing Cross/Cannon Street <-> Orpington, of which 2 continue to Sevenoaks (haven't decided where to put this)
2tph Cannon Street <-> Gillingham via Abbey Wood, semifast (screw TL, get that out of here and restore this service)
2tph Cannon Street <-> Gravesend via Greenwich
2tph Charing Cross <-> Dartford via Blackheath and Charlton
2tph Blackfriars <-> Beckenham Junction via Sydenham Hill (as a compromise for the Victoria - Orpington stoppers being reduced from 4 to 2)
2tph Charing Cross <-> Rochester via Sidcup (1tph doesn't stop at some stations like Lewisham, Albany Park)
4tph Charing Cross <-> Hayes
2tph Cannon Street looper via Eltham and Sidcup

 

[CarrotPie]

*cracks open a new packet of question marks*

(crosses between fast and slow line south of Hither Green, calling at all stops en route)

How's that going to work?

2tph Charing Cross <-> Rochester via Sidcup (1tph doesn't stop at some stations like Lewisham, Albany Park)

Why Rochester? I'm not saying "no" - I've always though it'd be great to have a regular service in that platform - but why not somewhere else, like Gravesend, or Rainham?

4tph Charing Cross <-> Hayes

To Lewisham or not to Lewisham?

 

[Krystal]

How's that going to work?

Fast lines from Grove Park to Lee Spur Junction, then slow lines to London. If we were to switch at Grove Park that'd cause more delays crossing than if I were to go at HGR.

Why Rochester? I'm not saying "no" - I've always though it'd be great to have a regular service in that platform - but why not somewhere else, like Gravesend, or Rainham?

One stop further from Gravesend, why not? Rainham just feels like a very very odd place to terminate in my opinion. So fight me, Thameslink.

To Lewisham or not to Lewisham?

2 yes, 2 no, just like now.

 

[Mattplans]

You could send 2x Hayes not calling at Lewisham to Cannon Street and have it cross here.

2tph Blackfriars <-> Beckenham Junction via Sydenham Hill (as a compromise for the Victoria - Orpington stoppers being reduced from 4 to 2)

What's the point though? You can already change at Herne Hill if you need Blackfriars that bad. This creates an uneven situation where there are now 2tph from herne hill to victoria, and 6tph for Blackfriars. Blackfriars isn't that great. In the current timetable, this also means the SE closely follows the TL service up the holborn lines. If this capping it at Beck Jnc is about platform space at Orpington (perhaps you want to reintroduce all day Luton - Orpingtons) I would suggest extending it to terminate at Swanley instead so it can still serve Bromley South.

Overall I would rate this as a 3/10. Poorer than your previous timetable in my opinion and the current timetable due to the disguised service reductions.

Acting on the current timetable, I would introduce a Victoria - Dartford service (or Sidcup sidings if there are capacity issues during peak hours) - this is a journey that is hard to make (at least in the outbound direction).

I know in my mind that the Dartford via Sidcup leaves Lewisham 1 minute before the Gravesend via Bexleyheath arrives. That leaves passengers from Vic/Denmark Hill/Peckham Rye/Nunhead with a 29 min wait at Lewisham if continuing to Sidcup. I think there is potential for demand as well for such a service. Not sure why there would be demand from Bexleyheath but not Sidcup. The Blfr - maid east services that will be running from the next timetable update will run fast via Denmark Hill - I would have these make stops at Elephant & Denmark Hill to connect with Dartford services.

I would also like to see a service from Woolwich Arsenal to Maidstone West calling at Abbey Wood, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Strood & then follow the same pattern as the HS1 MDW services to facilitate additional connections with Eliz Line and DLR.

During the busiest hours, there should also be a service between Victoria and Tonbridge calling at Bromley South, Orpington, Sevenoaks, Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green, Sevenoaks and Tonbridge

I also think the current 1Ys that run at the extremes of the day between Tonbridge and London Bridge via the Beckenham Spur should make calls at Bromley South in both directions.

& The current service from Blackfriars to Beck Jnc should be extended to Swanley to serve Shortlands, Bromley and Bickley.

 

[CarrotPie]

& The current service from Blackfriars to Beck Jnc should be extended to Swanley to serve Shortlands, Bromley and Bickley.

Is there really the capacity to turn stuff at Swanley, though?

You could send 2x Hayes not calling at Lewisham to Cannon Street and have it cross here.

Yes, but then it would cross several running lines, which would in turn cause disruption to the services that use them, especially if said Hayes services run late and lose their path. The whole point of rebuilding LBG was to stop services crossing each other and creating conflicting moves.

 

[Krystal]

I would also like to see a service from Woolwich Arsenal to Maidstone West calling at Abbey Wood, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Strood & then follow the same pattern as the HS1 MDW services to facilitate additional connections with Eliz Line and DLR.

How the Jesus do you plan on turning trains around at Woolwich? No crossovers, no sidings (that's in Plumstead, don't @ me for the logistics of turning trains around there) At that point you're better off taking it to London, and even then you already got the semi-fast services that go to MDE anyways!!!! Leave the Strood shuttle be. It simply has nonexistent demand for a regular direct train to London.

& The current service from Blackfriars to Beck Jnc should be extended to Swanley to serve Shortlands, Bromley and Bickley.

No space to turn things around at Swanley. It's such a random place to turn around that you're better off going down via Bat & Ball to go to Sevenoaks. Oh wait. That basically already exists.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Rainham just feels like a very very odd place to terminate in my opinion.

I never understand the antipathy towards Rainham. It may be 40 years since I lived in the Medway Towns but even then it was a continuous conurbation from Strood to Rainham. Of all the five stations only Rainham had decent car parking for railheading from estates remote from the stations. We were really suffering from coach competition in those days, largely because of the lack of parking. That has gone away, largely thanks to HS1, and North Kent now has far better links to Docklands via various routes that weren't available back then.

I realise that 'nobody who doesn't live near Rainham' has ever been there in the absence of (1) needing to change for the Medway Valley Line (Strood); (2) imbibing the heritage of Rochester; (3) visiting Chatham's Historic Dockyard or; (4) attending a football game at Priestfield Stadium (Gillingham). However, there are about 40,000 people who now live there.

(It's just like Corby in that despite being a 'success' everybody on RailUK Forums seems to have a spiffing wheeze to cut, downgrade or slow down the service.)

 

[CarrotPie]

If nothing else, Rainham gives you an extra bay platform. If you already have 2tph terminating at Gillingham, you might not be able to fit another 2tph, but sending one of the services to Rainham gives you the extra space needed without depriving Chatham and Gillingham of a service, like if it terminated at Rochester.

 

[NCT]

What are the benefits of the proposed service pattern?

 

[NorthKent1989]

2tph Cannon Street <-> Gillingham via Abbey Wood, semifast (screw TL, get that out of here and restore this service)
2tph Cannon Street <-> Gravesend via Greenwich
2tph Charing Cross <-> Dartford via Blackheath and Charlton

The Gillingham service would be better off running via Blackheath and Woolwich and from Charing Cross.