Caught using spouse's season ticket

[fowler9]

I hope you aren't put out of pocket too much but the lady in question wasn't being that officious. Try getting on a plane with someone elses ticket. I wouldn't dream of telling someone else they can use my local travel pass because if they got collared they would get in trouble and I don't doubt that I would possibly as well.
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Using your own illogic-
I can buy car insurance for me but when I dont need to use the car I can let me 20 year old son use it can I?

If I tax my car and am not going to be using it for a week or so can I put the tax disc on another car? I have paid to use a car on the roads so does it matter what car its on, after all it can only be on one car at a time which is what I agreed to!

The rules are quite clear when you sign up for it, if you dont like the rules then find an alternative you are happy with!

With all due respect you pay vehicle excise duty not road tax. You have paid for that particular car and the size of engine it has. I am constantly amazed by the number of people who pay this and don't seem to know what they have actually paid for.

To put it another way, people who drive cars seem to think that they pay for the roads and should have first dibs. The truth is that I also pay for the roads and don't even drive.

 

[John @ home]

Would it have been an idea to refer to the "issued as ## coupons" notation on the advance ticket to back up your point that there was no other coupon?

the reservation would say MANDATORY RESERVATION 1 OF 1.

My experience is that some ticket issuing systems print this information, others don't.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . The Guard was adamant that an Advance ticket would have specific booked services for the "and connections", and bluntly said he wasn't convinced I was telling the truth. He certainly didn't believe that I didn't have reservation coupons for the "and connections" leg, and said he wanted to know what I'd done with them.
[they don't exist. Of course].

Would it have been an idea to refer to the "issued as ## coupons" notation on the advance ticket to back up your point that there was no other coupon? (I presume the connection your reservation intended you to take would have been Northern, as had you been booked on CrossCountry you would indeed have been issued a reservation for that leg.)

The presumption would have been for travel on the "& connections" leg to be by ScotRail (not normally reservable), but following disruption and cancellations I decided to ask a XC guard if I could complete the journey on their service (normally reservable).

My experience is that some ticket issuing systems print this information, others don't.

The tickets on that occasion printed "ISSUED AS 2 COUPONS" on the ticket, and "MANDATORY RESERVATION COUPON 1 OF 1" on the reservation. However, my attempt to present my interpretation was met with the rebuttal of the number of years that the Guard had been a Guard, that I must have done something with the other coupons, and that he was trying to explain to me how Advance tickets work.

(As stated, I was permitted to travel, and indeed another pax travelling on staff pass was asked to give up their seat in favour of a standing first class passenger, while I was not asked to give up mine. But he remained adamant).

 

[Muzer]

Is it not the case that (by some regulations at least, I can't even remember if these are publicly available) you're not allowed to travel non-reserved portions of your Advance on reservable trains? (Though I suppose if a train is late, this should be waived).

 

[Mex]

I hope you aren't put out of pocket too much but the lady in question wasn't being that officious. Try getting on a plane with someone elses ticket. I wouldn't dream of telling someone else they can use my local travel pass because if they got collared they would get in trouble and I don't doubt that I would possibly as well.
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With all due respect you pay vehicle excise duty not road tax. You have paid for that particular car and the size of engine it has. I am constantly amazed by the number of people who pay this and don't seem to know what they have actually paid for.

To put it another way, people who drive cars seem to think that they pay for the roads and should have first dibs. The truth is that I also pay for the roads and don't even drive.

I've given up trying to explain why that argument is wrong.

 

[LexyBoy]

Is it not the case that (by some regulations at least, I can't even remember if these are publicly available) you're not allowed to travel non-reserved portions of your Advance on reservable trains? (Though I suppose if a train is late, this should be waived).

Supposedly so, but only ticketing geeks would know about it as it's only mentioned in The Manual.

My guess is that the XC guard was unaware that Advance tickets could be valid without the reservation, as all XC trains are reservable so any itinerary involving XC generated for an Advance will/should always give a reservation for that train. The only time there will not be a reservation will be, as here, when the "& Connections" leg has a choice of TOCs, with the original itinerary given using a non-reservable service but due to actual timings during journey the reservable service is the connection chosen by the passenger.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is it not the case that (by some regulations at least, I can't even remember if these are publicly available) you're not allowed to travel non-reserved portions of your Advance on reservable trains? (Though I suppose if a train is late, this should be waived).

The Manual instructs rail staff not to allow travel on a reservable train without a reservation. It is incorrect, as the contract with the passenger allows them to choose "appropriate" connecting trains, whichever these might be.

 

[bb21]

The Manual instructs rail staff not to allow travel on a reservable train without a reservation. It is incorrect, as the contract with the passenger allows them to choose "appropriate" connecting trains, whichever these might be.

I don't think The Manual is incorrect in its instructions. It's more an issue that the word "appropriate" is not clearly defined, hence open to interpretation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Manual instructs rail staff not to allow travel on a reservable train without a reservation. It is incorrect, as the contract with the passenger allows them to choose "appropriate" connecting trains, whichever these might be.

It isn't incorrect. It might be open to interpretation, but it isn't incorrect.

The NRE website says:

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

You will not get a "valid travel itinerary" that tells you to take a reservable train without a reservation coupon also being issued to you.

A perfect example is Bradford to Leeds. Northern have started offering advance fares on some Calder Valley line trains; if the itinerary tells you to catch one of these trains you will get a reservation coupon for that train, even though typically you don't get a reservation between the two cities.

 

[island]

A perfect example is Bradford to Leeds. Northern have started offering advance fares on some Calder Valley line trains; if the itinerary tells you to catch one of these trains you will get a reservation coupon for that train, even though typically you don't get a reservation between the two cities.

On the flip side of this, Northern guards seem unbothered about which train you use, in my experience, even if you do have a reservation coupon.

 

[LexyBoy]

You will not get a "valid travel itinerary" that tells you to take a reservable train without a reservation coupon also being issued to you.

Where is "valid travel itinerary" defined though?

To me the obvious answer would be an itinerary, shown as valid for the ticket held, from NRE or a booking engine. I cannot see any necessity that the "valid travel itinerary" be that generated at the time of booking. It is not reasonable by any stretch, IMHO, to expect customers to deduce from the published T&Cs that reservable trains cannot be used without a reservation, and I doubt many would make this step without prior knowledge of what is in The Manual.

There are plenty of circumstances where an itinerary could be generated which is different to that used for the booking. For example, a passenger might check their journey nearer the time of travel using NRE. With no record of the itinerary generated when booking, other than the compulsory reservations issued, they would have no way of knowing whether their connection is the same or different (perhaps due to different choices between NRE and the issuing system, or a change of timetable).

 

[OwlMan]

Supposedly so, but only ticketing geeks would know about it as it's only mentioned in The Manual.

My guess is that the XC guard was unaware that Advance tickets could be valid without the reservation, as all XC trains are reservable so any itinerary involving XC generated for an Advance will/should always give a reservation for that train. The only time there will not be a reservation will be, as here, when the "& Connections" leg has a choice of TOCs, with the original itinerary given using a non-reservable service but due to actual timings during journey the reservable service is the connection chosen by the passenger.

The Birmingham - Leicester local service is not reservable - I had a XC & Connections from Nuneaton - Darton with no reserved seat on XC - only the EMT Leicester - Sheffield was reserved.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Where is "valid travel itinerary" defined though?

To me the obvious answer would be an itinerary, shown as valid for the ticket held, from NRE or a booking engine. I cannot see any necessity that the "valid travel itinerary" be that generated at the time of booking.

Indeed, I'd certainly agree with all that, and think the omission of a definition is most unhelpful.

I guess my general point is that, on booking, a reservable train will issue you with a coupon and a non-reservable train will not. You will be told to catch a specific non-reservable train to catch your reservable train, and you'll be told this at the time of booking. Given that you are not permitted to break your journey, in most cases you will not have a reason to catch an earlier reserved train. Emergency engineering works would really be the only reason.

On the flip side of this, Northern guards seem unbothered about which train you use, in my experience, even if you do have a reservation coupon.

It depends. IME they don't give a stuff about TOC & Connections tickets, where they are the connecting train. They do check the reservation coupon properly when you are on a Northern advance ticket (e.g. Newcastle to Carlisle, Bradford to Manchester, Leeds to Nottingham).

 

[Chrisgr31]

I guess my general point is that, on booking, a reservable train will issue you with a coupon and a non-reservable train will not. You will be told to catch a specific non-reservable train to catch your reservable train, and you'll be told this at the time of booking. Given that you are not permitted to break your journey, in most cases you will not have a reason to catch an earlier reserved train. Emergency engineering works would really be the only reason.

Surely the reason for catching an earlier reserved train is to allow for delays and cancellations. If say I had an advance ticket from Telford to London, I would have a reserved seat on a train from Birmingham New Street or Wolverhampton to London. My itinary would tell me what train to get from Telford but I might catch the earlier one because I don't wish to miss my reserved train.

I wouldn't be breaking my journey, I'd just spend longer at Wolverhampton or Birmingham. The Teford trains are not reservable but in all reality unless I was given a reserved seat on my connecting train it wouldn't occur to me that I couldn't use any connecting train.