Caught at Sutton Coldfield today

[LewDrogo]

Just going to be totally honest, I used a 16-17 railcard on Trainline for Sutton Coldfield to Birmingham New Street return journeys for about 2 months, but booked them from Aston rather than Sutton. Very silly and stupid of me, I realise now it is not worth it. Had my details taken today and was told to wait for a prosecution letter, I was quite stressed at the time as I’ve never dealt with anything like this before. The guy I spoke to was actually relatively nice and helpful, he explained that the train company can help me to set up a payment plan for any fine or other payment of the sort. I have been scrolling through this site for the last few hours and have seen many people worried about going to court, can anyone please let me know what I should expect?? I have learned my lesson and more than happy to pay any costs involved but I would really not want to go to court. Any help is massively appreciated, thank you.

 

[John R]

Firstly, can you post anything you were given, with any identifying features and reference numbers hidden.

Secondly, do you actually have a 16-17 railcard, or were you buying a ticket with that railcard selected without having one?

In due course you're likely to get a letter asking for your side of the story - they will probably investigate your trainline account first and spot the previous offences, so you can expect those to be taken into account in any settlement offer you get. If you respond to the letter politely, apologising for what you've done, and promise not to do it again then it's likely that you will be offered a settlement (but obviously we can't guarantee that). The settlement will typically be based on the full single fare cost for each journey you took, with an admin cost of maybe £150 added on top.

I'm not sure "payment plan" bit is correct though. Typically you have to pay it in full within a couple of weeks, else they move to prosecution. So if that is going to be a problem then best to work out what the "damage" might be in terms of any settlement offer, and think of ways in which you can have the funds available when asked. (The Anytime Single fare for your journey is £4.40 if that helps, so £8.80 for each day)

 

[LewDrogo]

Firstly, can you post anything you were given, with any identifying features and reference numbers hidden.

Secondly, do you actually have a 16-17 railcard, or were you buying a ticket with that railcard selected without having one?

In due course you're likely to get a letter asking for your side of the story - they will probably investigate your trainline account first and spot the previous offences, so you can expect those to be taken into account in any settlement offer you get. If you respond to the letter politely, apologising for what you've done, and promise not to do it again then it's likely that you will be offered a settlement (but obviously we can't guarantee that). The settlement will typically be based on the full single fare cost for each journey you took, with an admin cost of maybe £150 added on top.

I'm not sure "payment plan" bit is correct though. Typically you have to pay it in full within a couple of weeks, else they move to prosecution. So if that is going to be a problem then best to work out what the "damage" might be in terms of any settlement offer, and think of ways in which you can have the funds available when asked. (The Anytime Single fare for your journey is £4.40 if that helps, so £8.80 for each day)

Hi John, thank you for your reply. I wasn’t given anything at the time except for a small note from the inspector with his reference number in it saying that I could complete my journey (but I was already at my final stop anyway so I did not keep this note)

I do not have any railcard, I simply selected it on Trainline.

I will await my letter, I will draft a reply using all of your suggestions and I will post a draft here if you would be able to read it when the time comes please.

Thank you for explaining regarding payment plan, that didn’t sound quite right when he said it. Doing a rough estimate calculation, I believe I did this did for approx. 9 weeks (5 days a week), so £8.80 x 5 = £44. £44 x 9 = £396. Plus the £150 admin fee = £546. As an overestimate, I will set aside £700 for when I (hopefully) get a settlement.

 

[John R]

That would seem to be a reasonable amount to set aside, yes.

One final point, when you get a letter, please do post it here for some of the regular advisors to comment on, but I’d encourage you to avoid using ChatGPT or similar to draft it. They stick out a mile, and are written in language that one wouldn’t use usually, and smack of insincerity in my view (“can’t be bothered to write something so I’ll just get AI to do it for me”)

 

[Hadders]

Can you post a copy of the receipt you were given (but do cover up the case reference number). Thsi is so we can be sure of exactly what you have been given which is important. I suspect they've completed a Travel Irregularity Report but I want to be certain it's not something else.

If you have been given a TIR the train company will write to you ina few weeks saying they have received a report and asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. The letter will use quite threatening language. We can't guarantee it but as long as you co-operate with the train company, and haven't come to their attention before, they normally offer an out of court settlement.

The train company will audit your online ticket purchasing history and they will probably want to include the cost of all the journeys you've made with an invalid ticket in the cost of the settlement. If you are offered a settlement it normally has to be paid in full within a few days of it being offered, payment in installments isn't normally allowed.

As @John R has said, post a copy of the letter in this thread when it arrives, along with your draft reply and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[LewDrogo]

Hi John, hi Hadders, thank you both so much for the advice. It was stupid of me to not keep the little note I was given, so I unfortunately can’t post it, but it just said that I was entitled to complete my journey, I think it also said that I have been scanned/talked to but there were no details on the note of what actually happened.

I’ll be sure to post the letter when it arrives and I will draft the reply myself (no AI) and get your opinions. I have brought a bus pass now and will no longer be catching the train so I don’t know if that matters at all. I will set my money aside and try my best to get this resolved as quickly and easily as possible.

Thank you again for your help, I will let you know as soon as the letter arrives.

 

[Hadders]

Hi John, hi Hadders, thank you both so much for the advice. It was stupid of me to not keep the little note I was given, so I unfortunately can’t post it, but it just said that I was entitled to complete my journey, I think it also said that I have been scanned/talked to but there were no details on the note of what actually happened.

I’ll be sure to post the letter when it arrives and I will draft the reply myself (no AI) and get your opinions. I have brought a bus pass now and will no longer be catching the train so I don’t know if that matters at all. I will set my money aside and try my best to get this resolved as quickly and easily as possible.

Thank you again for your help, I will let you know as soon as the letter arrives.

This sort of paperwork is very important so in future don't get rid of it. As things stand we're having to guess what you were given and that means we can't give you the best advice.

 

[LewDrogo]

This sort of paperwork is very important so in future don't get rid of it. As things stand we're having to guess what you were given and that means we can't give you the best advice.

Thank you, I understand now, at the time I had not read any of these forums so I didn’t realise it would be needed. Apart from the TRI is there anything else that you think it could have been?

As soon as I receive a letter I will post it to clear up any confusion.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you, I understand now, at the time I had not read any of these forums so I didn’t realise it would be needed. Apart from the TRI is there anything else that you think it could have been?

As soon as I receive a letter I will post it to clear up any confusion.

It might have been a Penalty Fare if it wasn't a TIR, but if you receive a letter we know it can't have been a Penalty Fare.

 

[John R]

It might have been a Penalty Fare if it wasn't a TIR, but if you receive a letter we know it can't have been a Penalty Fare.

If the OP was told to wait for a prosecution letter then I doubt it was. But all we can do now is wait and see.

 

[Hadders]

A Penalty Fare was my thought. It almost certainly wasn’t a PF but it’s always worth checking.

 

[LewDrogo]

Hi All, thank you for explaining. I believe it is a TIR rather than a PF.

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Hi All, I haven’t received my letter yet but a quick question, are settlement payments usually allowed to be paid by credit card? I ask because if I cannot pay by credit card, I will have to use my wages and therefore make extra financial arrangements. Thank you in advance!

 

[LewDrogo]

Hi All, I have today received the attached letter in regards to the above incident. Below is my draft reply, any feedback would be very much appreciated as I want to do whatever I can to get this settled out of court! Thank you.


Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your email regarding an incident that took place on 12th August 2024.

I was travelling from Birmingham New Street to Sutton Coldfield using a 16-17 saver railcard when I was 23 years old. I admit I should not have done this and sincerely apologize for this.

I wanted to express that I truly regret my actions and this will not happen again. I have now stopped travelling via train, and have now purchased a bus pass to travel via bus instead as this is affordable for me.

If acceptable, I would like to compensate the company for loss of revenue on the ticket as well as any administrative fees in relation to this, and I would be very grateful if this could possibly be settled out of court.

Many thanks and I look forward to your response.

Regards,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

I have also just realised that they have spelt my surname incorrectly on the letter, would this make any difference at all?

Also, this may be a silly question, but it says to write to the address's stated on the letter which is a Portsmouth address, would this be correct? I’m sure it is, I’m just paranoid about my reply being lost!

 

[Hadders]

I'd take the bit out that says you have stopped travelling by train and are now using the bus. It sounds insincere.

I think you also need to add something about what you have learned from the incident, for example the impact of fare evasion on the railway.

You need to ask if it would be possible to settle the matter out of court. Say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle.....'

The incorrect spelling won't make any difference. Send the letter to the address stated on the letter - if that's in Plymouth then that's where you need to send it to. DO make sure you keep a copy of what you send for your records, I'd sent the latter by 1st Class 'Signed For'.

 

[LewDrogo]

I'd take the bit out that says you have stopped travelling by train and are now using the bus. It sounds insincere.

I think you also need to add something about what you have learned from the incident, for example the impact of fare evasion on the railway.

You need to ask if it would be possible to settle the matter out of court. Say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle.....'

The incorrect spelling won't make any difference. Send the letter to the address stated on the letter - if that's in Plymouth then that's where you need to send it to. DO make sure you keep a copy of what you send for your records, I'd sent the latter by 1st Class 'Signed For'.

Hi Hadders, thank you for getting back to me. I only received the letter this evening after getting home from work, and I noticed that the 14 day period is almost up as the letter is dated as 28th August, so I have rushed to write my reply and put it in the postbox. Please let me know what you think, unfortunately I didn’t see your reply before posting, but I hope my response will be okay.

Also, I noticed at the top of the letter that it has the logos for WMR, LNR, and it says ‘Operated By West Midlands Trains’, am I right in thinking that I am dealing solely with WMR?

Thank you!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Hadders, thank you for getting back to me. I only received the letter this evening after getting home from work, and I noticed that the 14 day period is almost up as the letter is dated as 28th August, so I have rushed to write my reply and put it in the postbox. Please let me know what you think, unfortunately I didn’t see your reply before posting, but I hope my response will be okay.

Also, I noticed at the top of the letter that it has the logos for WMR, LNR, and it says ‘Operated By West Midlands Trains’, am I right in thinking that I am dealing solely with WMR?

Thank you!

Portsmouth is where one of the firms that this work is contracted out to is based I think (Ircas?).

Those logos are just brands of the same railway operator essentially. But they all do enforcement on behalf of each other it’s just who stopped you deals with it all (so that would include Avanti or Chiltern too in Birmingham area) it makes no difference.

You’ve posted it now so to late but usually it’s recommended that you send it tracked post so you can be sure it’s been delivered as it is vital they receive your reply otherwise it will progress to prosecution without further letters to you. But hopefully the post will get there ok. Be sure to watch out for a reply.

 

[LewDrogo]

Portsmouth is where one of the firms that this work is contracted out to is based I think (Ircas?).

Those logos are just brands of the same railway operator essentially. But they all do enforcement on behalf of each other it’s just who stopped you deals with it all (so that would include Avanti or Chiltern too in Birmingham area) it makes no difference.

You’ve posted it now so to late but usually it’s recommended that you send it tracked post so you can be sure it’s been delivered as it is vital they receive your reply otherwise it will progress to prosecution without further letters to you. But hopefully the post will get there ok. Be sure to watch out for a reply.

Hi, thank you for the reply. To be honest I do feel a bit stupid now not sending it tracked, but I put a first class stamp on the envelope and I have taken photos of the letter, my reply and even the envelope with address and stamp on! I’ll be sure to come back to the thread once they reply. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

Sorry last question! Judging by the letter and my response, what would you expect their next reply to be? I think WMR are usually one of the ‘nicer’ ones according to other threads?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, thank you for the reply. To be honest I do feel a bit stupid now not sending it tracked, but I put a first class stamp on the envelope and I have taken photos of the letter, my reply and even the envelope with address and stamp on! I’ll be sure to come back to the thread once they reply. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

Sorry last question! Judging by the letter and my response, what would you expect their next reply to be? I think WMR are usually one of the ‘nicer’ ones according to other threads?

Good that you made those copies. You just need to wait for a reply but not sure how long that may take. Maybe a few weeks.

Not sure if IRCAS if it is them will take more persuading. But hopefully they will offer you a settlement. I see you did your calculations on how much has been evaded. You need to be ready to pay any settlement offer promptly and ideally in full as I think you know from earlier advice.

 

[Hadders]

I'd be surprised if you don't get offered a settlement.

 

[LewDrogo]

Thank you both! I believe the firm is ITAL, this was part of their address. Fingers crossed for a settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you both! I believe the firm is ITAL, this was part of their address. Fingers crossed for a settlement.

Ah yes. That sounds correct. Apols for my incorrect guess.

 

[some bloke]

Do you realise your letter omits the short-faring?

 

[LewDrogo]

Ah yes. That sounds correct. Apols for my incorrect guess.

No need to apologise! Do you have any past experiences with ITAL?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2024 ==

Do you realise your letter omits the short-faring?

The letter I received only mentions 1 rail fare on the incident date, judging by other threads and letters I have seen I believe it is best to just mention the 1 incident in the reply in the same way they have?

I may be wrong, I guess now I just have to wait and see with fingers crossed.

 

[some bloke]

The letter I received only mentions 1 rail fare on the incident date

Your first post mentions tickets from Aston, and can be read as saying that on that day, you showed a ticket with the wrong origin station.

Your letter only apologises for using the railcard, as if that was the only problem on that day.

 

[LewDrogo]

Your first post mentions tickets from Aston, and can be read as saying that on that day, you showed a ticket with the wrong origin station.

Your letter only apologises for using the railcard, as if that was the only problem on that day.

Ah I understand what you mean now, to be honest I didn’t think of it like that at the time of writing. I wrote Birmingham New Street in my letter as that is where my journey originated on the day. I hope/assume that they would know that my ticket was from Aston, as this was recorded by the officer on the day as well as will be on my Trainline history. I did not intentionally leave it out, maybe an oversight on my behalf, I hope this does not go against me!

 

[WesternLancer]

No need to apologise! Do you have any past experiences with ITAL?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2024 ==


The letter I received only mentions 1 rail fare on the incident date, judging by other threads and letters I have seen I believe it is best to just mention the 1 incident in the reply in the same way they have?

I may be wrong, I guess now I just have to wait and see with fingers crossed.

Can’t recall ITAL cases specifically but you could try putting ITAL in the forum search.

 

[LewDrogo]

Hi all, I have inputted my reference number into the IRCAS website today and I have seemingly been granted a settlement, it says I can make the payment now of £179.40

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, I have inputted my reference number into the IRCAS website today and I have seemingly been granted a settlement, it says I can make the payment now of £179.40

Be sure to keep proof of payment and maybe some screenshots. Keep those long term. At least a year if not more.

 

[LewDrogo]

Be sure to keep proof of payment and maybe some screenshots. Keep those long term. At least a year if not more.

Thank you, I have screenshotted and will keep these saved.