Catalonia: independence referendum 2017

[Tetchytyke]

Rajoy's party is Francoist, founded by everyone who served under Franco. Sending in the heavies, and wittering about "the rule of law" (written by Francoists) was pretty much the stupidest thing they could have done. It's turned even the moderates against them.

I understand why they were loathe to sanction a referendum- look how that's worked for us- but sending the guardia civil in doesn't help build bridges.

I don't see civil war, but it could come close...

 

[najaB]

Oh come on, The SNP will be jumping for joy over this.

They won't be because it has been so messy - the Spanish situation is everything that the SNP wants to say that a UK split wouldn't be.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As usual, The SNP 'respects' Catalonia's decision for independence. If this is how Spain reacts to UDI, I hope Westminster would do the same if they tried it.

You're comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended) though. If at the end of all the wrangling the outcome is an independent Catalonia, the Madrid government will have only themselves to blame. They've mis-handled the issue spectacularly right from the start.

 

[Senex]

You're comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended) though. If at the end of all the wrangling the outcome is an independent Catalonia, the Madrid government will have only themselves to blame. They've mis-handled the issue spectacularly right from the start.

"National" governments do have form over a long time for mishandling such things. Just look at the way our own beloved Westminster dealt with the Irish Home Rule question in the latter half of the nineteenth century and the consequences of that mishandling still with us today.

 

[radamfi]

Brexiters would have us believe that national governments are powerless within the EU. If that is so, separatists in Scotland, Flanders and Catalonia wouldn't exist.

 

[Hornet]

"National" governments do have form over a long time for mishandling such things. Just look at the way our own beloved Westminster dealt with the Irish Home Rule question in the latter half of the nineteenth century and the consequences of that mishandling still with us today.

Perhaps you need to consider a former Taoiseach's views on the subject.

Why John Bruton is totally right to question Easter 1916

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/why-john-bruton-is-right-to-question-easter-1916

 

[Hornet]

Brexiters would have us believe that national governments are powerless within the EU. If that is so, separatists in Scotland, Flanders and Catalonia wouldn't exist.

Once the Federalists have their way there will be no 'National Governments' in the EU. The EU army, (the one Nick Clegg said would not happen), under Franco-German control will be able to crush any dissenting voices within the EU (similar to what is happening in Spain ATM). Democracy as we know it will disappear, to be replaced by some neo-liberal authoritarian regime. There are many on this forum who have already shown distain for democracy by implying that elder (and not so) elder people should not have voted in the EU referendum. Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Soviet Union has questioned the direction of the EU by questioning why Western European leaders want to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe. All Empires eventually fail, (Byzantine, Roman, British, Third Reich, Soviet Union). The EU will go exactly the same way as you cannot suppress the 'will of the people'. Any attempt to do so will lead to conflict, (Ireland, Yugoslavia, Spain with it's Catalonian and Basque populations).

Like the Soviet Union, is EU heading for ash heap of history?

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/359327-soviet-union-eu-history/

 

[radamfi]

Once the Federalists have their way there will be no 'National Governments' in the EU.

But if that was so, there would be no demand for governments in small countries like Scotland and Catalonia if all your policies came from the EU anyway. The fact is, there is huge divergence of policies between countries despite the existence of the EU. Some countries have high income tax and large public spending, others, like the UK, prefer the Anglo-American style of low taxation and spending. Bus deregulation still exists in Britain but not in any other EU country. Bus deregulation hasn't been outlawed by the EU. Some countries have student tuition fees, some don't.

 

[HSTEd]

But if that was so, there would be no demand for governments in small countries like Scotland and Catalonia if all your policies came from the EU anyway. The fact is, there is huge divergence of policies between countries despite the existence of the EU. Some countries have high income tax and large public spending, others, like the UK, prefer the Anglo-American style of low taxation and spending. Bus deregulation still exists in Britain but not in any other EU country. Bus deregulation hasn't been outlawed by the EU. Some countries have student tuition fees, some don't.

By that logic, there is absolutely no call for anyone to have local government, even though all important policies are at the national or international level.
Which doesn't really fit with what we percieve in reality.

Additionally the general direction of travel in the EU has been towards harmonisation and the ending of national differences over policies on taxation, trade and public services.
For example, the UK was forced to abolish the exemption from duty provided to home-grown tobacco, because the EU commanded it.

 

[radamfi]

By that logic, there is absolutely no call for anyone to have local government, even though all important policies are at the national or international level.
Which doesn't really fit with what we percieve in reality.

Additionally the general direction of travel in the EU has been towards harmonisation and the ending of national differences over policies on taxation, trade and public services.
For example, the UK was forced to abolish the exemption from duty provided to home-grown tobacco, because the EU commanded it.

The point is, some decisions are best done at local/regional level, some at national and some at European/world level. EU law/directives are there primarily for the smooth running of the single market. Other than Scottish and maybe Welsh devolution, the UK is pretty bad at devolution below the national level.

 

[najaB]

For example, the UK was forced to abolish the exemption from duty provided to home-grown tobacco, because the EU commanded it.

Any chance of some more information on this because I've not been able to find anything.

 

[HSTEd]

Any chance of some more information on this because I've not been able to find anything.

The relevant information appears to have largely dissapeared into the ether apart from a single Daily Star article - which is hardly that reliable.

In essence, historically tobacco duty only applied on tobacco that was for sale, as is historically typical for duties in the UK, for example you are not required to pay duty for wine you make yourself.
However as a result of various EU directives said exemption was abolished, and in fact it now appears that it is essentially illegal to grow tobacco in a private residence.

 

[najaB]

However as a result of various EU directives said exemption was abolished, and in fact it now appears that it is essentially illegal to grow tobacco in a private residence.

My understanding of the situation is that there was never explicitly supposed to be an exemption but rather that one existed because of the clumsy way in which the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1979 was drafted - essentially it created a loophole. Said loophole wasn't specifically abolished due to instruction from the EU but rather the amendments which were made in 1993 in order to implement a different EU directive had the side-effect of closing that loophole.

Of course it's easier to blame the EU.

 

[HSTEd]

My understanding of the situation is that there was never explicitly supposed to be an exemption but rather that one existed because of the clumsy way in which the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1979 was drafted - essentially it created a loophole. Said loophole wasn't specifically abolished due to instruction from the EU but rather the amendments which were made in 1993 in order to implement a different EU directive had the side-effect of closing that loophole.

Of course it's easier to blame the EU.

I am not sure I would call it a clumsy drafting loophole, but simply that that is the way that such duties were always set up in the UK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The EU army, (the one Nick Clegg said would not happen)

You mean the one that would not happen if we were staying a member of the EU because we'd be able to veto it?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps you need to consider a former Taoiseach's views on the subject.



https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/why-john-bruton-is-right-to-question-easter-1916

I wouldn't put much faith in what "Unionist John" has to say about anything.

 

[Hornet]

You mean the one that would not happen if we were staying a member of the EU because we'd be able to veto it?

Until Qualified Majority Voting is pushed through. Looking forward to seeing the EU's neutral countries deal with it, not to mention how much the Russians will enjoy a German dominated EU army sat on their border. It will not end well.

 

[Hornet]

I wouldn't put much faith in what "Unionist John" has to say about anything.

I would not put much faith in what any Irish Politician has to say about anything, after watching them trying to re-write history over the last 25 years.

 

[Groningen]

Independent or not independent. I do not care. If independent, than may do it all do it on their own. Army, football, new currency, bordercontrol and others.