Card declined on train, ticket man took details.

[island]

He already said it was common law.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

He already said it was common law.

He also said 'numerous statutes'. Even if it was just common law - it's still got to be documented somewhere!

We've had this discussion here before:

I would agree that, like shopping centres and similar places, railway stations and trains themselves are often open to the public for the purposes of conducting relevant business, but are not public property and no right of way exists nor any right to remain if requested by an authorised person to leave the premises.

By logical extension, and knowing just a little of the law about filming and photographing in 'public' places after 23 years as a journalist, I would say that you would be on a sticky wicket if you refused to stop filming a member of staff, on railway property or a train, when asked to do so.

You're filming on private property, whether you consider it a public space is irrelevant.

Try going into a gallery, filming everything, and when asked to stop say 'It's a public space so I can film it if I like' and see how long it is before you get kicked out.

Don't really want to get involved in the debate here too much, but public space isn't what matters - for example, the interior of a museum is public space, but as it's Private Property, if the museum owner says you can't take photos, you risk being ejected from the premises if you do.

Private property remains private property, no matter how many members of the public you allow access within certain times or to conduct certain business or for other specific reasons.

 

[michael769]

Perhaps, Michael, you could point out to me the law that states you can take photographs on private property as long as it's a public place? I would very much like to read it, as the Photographers Guide to UK Law does not draw such a distinction.

We live in a free(ish) society with due process where we can lawfully do anything that is not prohibited by the law. There is no law that says I can eat a beef burger, but I don't need there to be one to know that eating one will not get me arrested.

So the more valid question is to identify the law that prohibits photography on private land that is open to the public without the prior consent of the owner or occupier of the property. The only provisions I am aware of is where there is a right of expectation to privacy (such as in a toilet or changing room), but I am unaware of any general prohibition, from which I can only conclude that it is not unlawful and thus citizens are free to exercise their lawful freedom of behavior.

Clearly there is a right for the lawful owner or occupier of private premises to instruct a member of the public to obey restrictions they can impose and failure to obey those restrictions could be a civil Tort and potentially a public order offence, but in the absence of those stated restrictions the above freedoms must be held to apply.

 

[Searle]

Was the card an Electron card? Lots of people seem to fall into the trap that they can be used on the railways (which they can't, iirc!). I don't know a huge deal about cards, so I don't know if an Electron is a credit or a debit card or such.

 

[Darandio]

Was the card an Electron card? Lots of people seem to fall into the trap that they can be used on the railways (which they can't, iirc!). I don't know a huge deal about cards, so I don't know if an Electron is a credit or a debit card or such.

On board yes, bu they can be happily used at the majority of TVM's. Obviously in this case it was on board, and I haven't seen any clarification on whether it was an offline card or not, unless I have missed it.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This is what Network Rail have to say about photography
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/777.aspx#photography

You can take photographs at stations provided you do not sell them. However, you are not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment, such as CCTV cameras.

 

[maniacmartin]

Network Rail's page matches what EMT and the BTP state.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Taking a photograph of a closed ticket office:

. . . . . I saw the ticket office closed when it was meant to be open. So I took a photo and short video of the ticket office to prove it wasn't open. Unfortunately a member of staff then spotted me taking a photo and gave me a right verbal about taking photos on railway property.

I consider that a passenger intending to travel without a ticket because the ticket office was closed immediately before the time of departure would be gathering evidence, and as such, has a privileged status.

For the purposes of this thread, we don't need to stray into photographer's rights, as there is a whole section dedicated to the subject on the forum, but I will just add 2 points:
I agree with this assessment, and that as a result, it has become a complex matter:

The concept of a public place on private property crops up throughout Common Law, and numerous statutes (other than the one you quote) also have provisions that apply to public places that are on private property.

He already said it was common law.

He also said 'numerous statutes'. Even if it was just common law - it's still got to be documented somewhere!

Indeed they are; island may be unfamiliar with UK law, where the complexity arises from the sheer volume of documented decisions, many arising from the torts of trespass and nuisance; decisions which create 'islands of certainty in an uncertain world'.

 

[talltim]

Legal or not, you'd have to be s bit of a **** to want to stop someone taking a picture of s closed booking office

 

[headshot119]

I once had pre-booked tickets to travel to Cardiff and opted for TOD, when I got to Wrexham General at 05:10 in the morning the TVM had a Red Cross through the option for ticket collection, I took a photo on my phone of it showing the time & date on then machine as well.

I approached the guard before boarding and he just told me to take a seat and not to worry. They swapped staff at Shrewsbury and the new guard wouldn't believe a word I'd said until I produced the photo. Sometimes you can't win!

 

[jon0844]

Legal or not, you'd have to be s bit of a **** to want to stop someone taking a picture of s closed booking office

I was told off for taking a photo of the new gateline at Finsbury Park!

 

[185]

Legal or not, you'd have to be s bit of a **** to want to stop someone taking a picture of s closed booking office

Never forget when I worked for TfGM, being stood at Rochdale with a PTE 'Squire' Inspector when the wrongly shut booking office was hastily re-opened and the guy behind the glass hurled abuse at us for 'not signing the station visitor book'. Needless to say, First North Western got reported, and subsequently fined.

Understaffing and reduced spare (GPR) cover has affected Northern greatly recently, while they have no doubt saved a pile of money, they are struggling to meet their obligations to provide adequate station cover, as proven at Rochdale, where recently the station was left locked up at 5.30am and passengers where climbing the fences yet again. I would encourage those using Northern Rail in the PTE areas, who come across a closed booking office window when it's supposed to be open, to take a photo and report it to the relevant PTE. While I agree it puts overworked station staff in a bad position, closed booking offices put Northern's own customers in a much worse legal position.