Car Ownership -Good Or Bad?

[yorksrob]

I think there is possibly a clash of freedoms. I can understand the freedom of the open road that some drivers might experience from time to time, however I'm not sure some people appreciate the extent to which having constant flows of traffic and urban areas cross crossed by urban motorways curtails the freedom of people to move and walk about in their own localities. For me, by far the biggest nuisance caused by motor transport is the sheer number of vehicles about.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For me, by far the biggest nuisance caused by motor transport is the sheer number of vehicles about.

The "sheer number" that you allude to speaks volumes for the popularity of the private car and the freedom to leave from your own property to go wheresoever you want to go, without being beholden to the possibilities of many problems that reliance on public transport, where it actually exists can bring.

 

[yorksrob]

The "sheer number" that you allude to speaks volumes for the popularity of the private car and the freedom to leave from your own property to go wheresoever you want to go, without being beholden to the possibilities of many problems that reliance on public transport, where it actually exists can bring.

Don't worry Paul, I'm well aware of the irony that it is the democratisation of motor transport that has turned it into such a monster. Undoubtedly it would have been easier to get about on foot when only the Squire had a horseless carriage, or in the days when one could enjoy a picnic on the central reservation of the M1.

Unfortunately, as we know with public transport, the democratisation of motor transport has often reduced the freedom and mobility of those without a car as rural bus and train routes become less viable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The "sheer number" that you allude to speaks volumes for the popularity of the private car and the freedom to leave from your own property to go wheresoever you want to go, without being beholden to the possibilities of many problems that reliance on public transport, where it actually exists can bring.

Don't forget though Paul, that that popularity undoubtedly arises in part from a market distortion whereby motorists receive a substantial hidden subsidy by virtue of almost never having to pay the full cost of car journeys. When you drive, you cause greenhouse pollution, pollution of other particulates, often directly in the areas in which other people live and breathe. You also cause noise, cause a small amount of congestion, which - depending on where you are driving may contribute to slowing down many other people's journeys. You are likely to be slightly damaging your health relative to if you used public transport or walked, which imposes future costs on the NHS. And of course you help to make public transport less viable, which then affects the lives of all the people who can't drive. Even if you are a very careful driver, you cause some risk of an accident and injury to yourself and other people. Mainly to other people since most cars have significant built-in protection for the occupants, but few safety measures to protect passers-by. And at the same time you benefit from an extensive road network that costs the Government a fortune to build, police, and maintain - for the most part, free. If you don't have your own driveway, you benefit from being allowed to claim a small piece of public space to park your car most of the time, denying use of that public space to other people.

On the other side, you pay road tax and fuel duties, but when economists attempt to add up the costs, they generally find those taxes aren't sufficient to pay for the benefits you receive and the harm you do to others. In short, you [1] are not paying the true cost of driving - much of the cost of each car journey is in fact borne by other people, not by the person choosing to make the journey.

Since I'm sure you are someone who strongly believes in the benefits of free markets, would you not agree that distorting a market in this way is going to lead to a sub-optimal distribution of resources: In this case, it will lead to driving being more popular than it would have been if there had been a genuine, subsidy-free, free market, with each person paying the actual cost of the journeys s/he makes.

[1] Hopefully it's clear that 'you' is meant in a generic, not a personal sense.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does the aspirational reduction in car numbers in Britain see a new and unexpected popularity for the barouche and the coach and four. This will have the advantage of free horse manure which is said to be much sought after by horticulturalists.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you don't have your own driveway, you benefit from being allowed to claim a small piece of public space to park your car most of the time, denying use of that public space to other people.

It is said that in certain areas, the so-called "small piece of public space" outside the personal residence is taken on most days of the week by car and van drivers who work nearby but park there as there is no parking space for them to park at their own place of employment, so the owner of the residence does not have the use of the said "small piece of public space". I am sure that you know of such instances as that.

Of course, this is not my personal problem, as if you have ever seen the 1940 Hitchcock directed film "Rebecca" starring Joan Fontaine and Laurence Olivier, you will recall the long driveway that led up to the house "Mandalay". Whilst our residence is none so grand as that, our own driveway certainly is lengthy.

We have a cobbled area at the rear of the property, fronting the six-outhouse-block where eight cars can park in comfort. This is always useful when we have workmen on site.

 

[Cowley]

It is said that in certain areas, the so-called "small piece of public space" outside the personal residence is taken on most days of the week by car and van drivers who work nearby but park there as there is no parking space for them to park at their own place of employment, so the owner of the residence does not have the use of the said "small piece of public space". I am sure that you know of such instances as that.

Of course, this is not my personal problem, as if you have ever seen the 1940 Hitchcock directed film "Rebecca" starring Joan Fontaine and Laurence Olivier, you will recall the long driveway that led up to the house "Mandalay". Whilst our residence is none so grand as that, our own driveway certainly is lengthy.

We have a cobbled area at the rear of the property, fronting the six-outhouse-block where eight cars can park in comfort. This is always useful when we have workmen on site.

You sound like my kind of customer Paul. Plenty of space to park the van, a nice view to look at when you eat your lunchtime sandwiches and a friendly family that make you a cuppa every two and a half hours (maybe the occasional piece of homemade cake too).
Who'd want to work in a city when you can have that?
Just watch out for kamikaze pigeons when working up the ladder...

 

[miami]

You sound like my kind of customer Paul. Plenty of space to park the van, a nice view to look at when you eat your lunchtime sandwiches and a friendly family that make you a cuppa every two and a half hours (maybe the occasional piece of homemade cake too).
Who'd want to work in a city when you can have that?
Just watch out for kamikaze pigeons when working up the ladder...

Remember to put up with the continuous Black Country drone you would hear of "I'm considerably richer that yow" every few minutes.

 

[GB]

On the other side, you pay road tax and fuel duties, but when economists attempt to add up the costs, they generally find those taxes aren't sufficient to pay for the benefits you receive and the harm you do to others. In short, you [1] are not paying the true cost of driving - much of the cost of each car journey is in fact borne by other people, not by the person choosing to make the journey.

I think when it comes to life most people never pay the true costs of most things.

Spend £50 on a weekly shop and I bet the true amount comes to more than £50. Had dental surgery recently? The true cost of that is likely to be higher than what you paid. A couple of hospital visits including the use of scanners and specialist is no doubt more than your NI contributions. That railway journey to XXX probably costs more in real terms aswell.

Its true the car drivers don't pay the full extent of road funding but many people use them for commuting where they can potentially earn a lot more and thus pay more in income tax and national insurance.

 

[Lankyline]

don't care[/I] about the harm your use of the car causes to other people, then I suggest you sit down and have a serious think about your attitude towards your fellow human beings.

So how do you define the overuse of cars then? or the harm my car causes, please live in the real world! I use my car for business and leisure, I use it how I want and when I want to and pay for the privilege of doing so, I don't have the time or the inclination to postulate on the so called "harm" my car has on others, I have a business to run, customers to service and bills to pay, its called the reality !

The impact my car makes is minor compared to the impact my business could make if I had not introduced cleaner, more efficient technology, equipment and working practices. So I would suggest a large dose of reality check before you start to question my attitude.

I would also suggest you direct your views towards the govt of the day, as their past and present policies have led to the transport world we now live in, people will adapt to the environment they live in and if that means using the car, then that's what they will do if there is no credible, efficient alternative to use.

 

[Cowley]

Remember to put up with the continuous Black Country drone you would hear of "I'm considerably richer that yow" every few minutes.

I'm rich too though, decorating is just my cover story. I told everyone winning the lottery wouldn't change me.

 

[tsr]

I work highly antisocial hours on a 24/7 railway roster, living in a big town otherwise located in the middle of the countryside, with absolutely no zero guaranteed public transport between 1am and 5am. Sometimes we have staff trains or empty stock, as one might expect a traditional railwayman to get to work once upon a time, but sometimes not.

Despite this, I am not currently running a car (I have a vehicle but it needs restoration) and it turns out more efficient to get a taxi to a station with a good overnight service to my workplace(s). My taxi bill isn't even close to triple figures most months, and my vehicle costs virtually nothing where it is currently.

Because there is no local overnight public transit, the local taxi companies do an astoundingly good trade, and can be the only car traffic seen at times on Friday and Saturday nights.

So, for work, I deal with a combination of trains and taxis, learning all the tricks as best I can. It wasn't an especially steep learning curve, and rarely fails. I haven't been able to get to work 3 times in circumstances which my employer agreed on, driven in a sum total of 2 times, and been late only due to issues outside what could be deemed to be reasonable forward planning. I've been working in the same area for several years without issue.

However, there are some big downsides, and for which reasons I am planning to drive a normal(ish) car around more regularly in future. Firstly, a number of my friends and family are increasingly organising events and other social stuff in areas for which public transport is rather impractical, and doesn't offer a turn-up-and-go service. If we decide to meet up at a lot of local places, I could do a public transport journey fine with a lot of planning, but not if they ring up half an hour beforehand. This is, unfortunately, really quite awkward and annoying.

Secondly, the local trains are not amazingly reliable all the time, and there's only so many delays "beyond my control" beyond the point where my employer and I have to look at it objectively and agree that it's not feasible, even if it's not my fault and they don't knock my performance for it.

Thirdly, my local town centre has undergone loads of changes, making it less easy to walk for even short distances to local public transport hubs. Compared to getting in a car, a 15 minute walk vice what used to take 8-10 minutes is healthier, sure, but a chunk at the start and end of my shift at work which could be avoided.

I dislike using less safe, less efficient and more polluting alternatives, wherever I have a choice, and for my most of my journeys up to now, this has included car use. But now, reasonably, it is foolish not to consider that option.

When self-driving cars and pod-like public transport systems become a reality in my bit of the UK, I think that they could be a good option for some of my needs. I really do think that sort of stuff is well on its way in, and here to stay, but it won't be ready for a few years yet, for certain. Until then, the conventional car may have to end up parked on my driveway.

I assume that you have not seen the annual handbook of the National Trust in recent years, as there is no longer the section in each entry that gives advice on how to get there by all modes of transport.

On the example of Little Moreton Hall that my posting alluded to, even the web page for that site makes no mention of how to get there.

So you tell me, what bus passes that National Trust property or failing that, what is the nearest bus stop in the surrounding area to it and the subsequent walking distance

Interestingly, some of the more popular National Trust sites and properties are now opting to run their own minibus services to get people there from conventional public transport routes, or park and ride sites. This is sometimes not well-publicised in their nationally-distributed materials, but it is good to see.

As it happens, I really don't enjoy most bus journeys - I find them to usually be a relatively slow and uncomfortable way of travelling, even on more upmarket vehicles - but on the odd occasion when it is genuinely the most efficient way of doing things, I will use them. Dedicated park and ride infrastructure, or anything which is likely to beat traffic queues, would probably top that list. Sadly, in my local area, neither of those things apply.

I live in a hamlet a few miles outside of Norwich. It does have a bus service, better than many, but its still only 1 bus every 2 hours with a late start and early finish.

I've just tried 3 trips;

Home - supermarket: car 10m, bus, 45m
Home - work: car 5m, bus 40m (not that I could use it for any of my shifts anyway)
Home - model shop: car 15m, bus 1hr

I don't live far from a fairly big city. Those are just not practical in any way for day to day living. So, I need some milk, that's almost a 3 hour trip on the bus, 30m max in a car.

Public transport is just not practical and soon as you are in an even slightly rural area.

As it coincidentally just so happens, I believe I know the area in which you live quite well! I know a fair number of people living around there in small villages (and the middle of nowhere in its purest form!). Some of them quite enjoy having a chat with their friends on the (free, for the older ones) bus into town, and like the direct option from a surprising range of nearby bus stops, but I agree, it's not especially efficient.

Cycling still allows a great deal of personal freedom (and it's quicker than driving in many cities, hence its recent growth as a mode for "serious" trips). TfGM have set a target of 10% of journeys to be made by bike in 2025 for example. Cycling is of course less competitive against the car or train for interurban trips.

I used to commute to college, and then by bike around Central London. I loved it, although I used the Boris Bikes most of the time, which are quite heavy and tiring if you like to build up speed and ride with the traffic.

I couldn't commute to work at the moment as I'd be riding a fairly long way, including a long slog uphill, and we don't have showers at work, and I need to be presentable and not too tired, right from the word go. I did do a couple of dummy runs, but it was no fun. It would also involve crossing a couple of motorway sliproads for which there is no alternative. I may have ridden down Tottenham Court Road and Euston Road more times than I care to mention, but London's motorway junctions are something else entirely...

 

[radamfi]

I couldn't commute to work at the moment as I'd be riding a fairly long way, including a long slog uphill, and we don't have showers at work, and I need to be presentable and not too tired, right from the word go.

Electric bikes eliminate the need for showering so are a good option for hilly areas or over long distances. Bizarrely they are still largely unknown in the UK despite their huge potential.

 

[tsr]

Electric bikes eliminate the need for showering so are a good option for hilly areas or over long distances. Bizarrely they are still largely unknown in the UK despite their huge potential.

I agree that they can be pretty good, and I am well aware of them, and it has been under consideration... but I have decided the investment in a nice model with decent range would outweigh the amount of use it would get, on those occasions when faster public transport options are unavailable. The shed is also tight for space, and would involve lifting it over two bins in a narrow alleyway, at 3am, without waking anyone.

Probably should have put that alongside the "no showers" thing... which, as an aside, would also be needed for all the times when it's been chucking it down. I always used to tend to ride quite fast, and get splattered with rain and bits of leaf mulch and mud.

I would probably purchase an electric bike if I had a bit more space to store one, the facilities were just that little bit better at work, and there was better cycle infrastructure at a couple of critical junctions. Plenty of people's lives would happily fulfil those criteria. Sadly mine can't!