Can services skip stations that are drop off only if no one has a ticket to them?

[scotrail170407]

I was on the seasonal 1Y30 17:04 Oban - Edinburgh today (the last run of the service for the year) and overhead a discussion between the conductor and guard about our calling points between Dalmuir and Linlithgow being drop off only.

This got me thinking, can normal passenger trains like 1Y30 skip stations that are meant for drop off only if no one has a ticket to them? I know the sleeper does this if nobody has a ticket to certain stops

I’m sure something similar must have been discussed elsewhere so apologies if there’s already an identical thread with the same question

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As you say, on the 1704 Oban -> Edinburgh Waverley service in question, the timetabled calls at Dalmuir, Falkirk High, Polmont, Lithlithgow and Haymarket are all "Do not pick up", so quite possibly this answers your query. Not much point at stopping at a station where no-one wants to alight, and no-one is permitted to board.

 

[Dai Corner]

Did the train in fact stop at any of the set down only stations? If so, did anyone get off? Or on for that matter?

 

[scotrail170407]

Did the train in fact stop at any of the set down only stations? If so, did anyone get off? Or on for that matter?

It stopped at every drop off only station but people only got off at Dalmuir and Polmont, no one got on anywhere. I boarded this service at Linlithgow a few weeks ago with no issue, though

 

[Surreytraveller]

Technically it would be a 'fail to call'

 

[Dai Corner]

Technically it would be a 'fail to call'

Even if the guard had confirmed there were no passengers wishing to alight and informed the driver?

 

[driver9000]

Even if the guard had confirmed there were no passengers wishing to alight and informed the driver?

Yes its still a "fail to call" because the train hasn't stopped at a station it is booked to call at. Authority to miss stations would come from the TOC controllers through a Not to stop order.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes its still a "fail to call" because the train hasn't stopped at a station it is booked to call at. Authority to miss stations would come from the TOC controllers through a Not to stop order.

I guess train crews aren't going to bother contacting Control to say they've no passengers for x, y and z and asking for permission not to call!

 

[krus_aragon]

Yes its still a "fail to call" because the train hasn't stopped at a station it is booked to call at. Authority to miss stations would come from the TOC controllers through a Not to stop order.

That wouldn't apply at request stops though, would it?

Trains around here routinely slow down and pull off without stopping at request stops, once the driver sees there's no-one to request it (and the guard has indicated that nobody wants to get off). But that's the whole idea of a request stop, isn't it?

 

[skyhigh]

That wouldn't apply at request stops though, would it?

Trains around here routinely slow down and pull off without stopping at request stops, once the driver sees there's no-one to request it (and the guard has indicated that nobody wants to get off). But that's the whole idea of a request stop, isn't it?

Is there such a thing as a set-down-only request stop?

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there such a thing as a set-down-only request stop?

I doubt it. I raised the issue of request stops as an alternative example of where there is (from what I see) authority for the driver/guard to miss stations if the train doesn't need to call.

 

[357]

And all it takes is one person to be in the toilet when the ticket check is done, or the guard to forget, or someone with a rover ticket to change their mind about destination, and there's a whole load of trouble.

 

[D365]

And all it takes is one person to be in the toilet when the ticket check is done, or the guard to forget, or someone with a rover ticket to change their mind about destination, and there's a whole load of trouble.

Indeed. Seems easier to just make the stops.

 

[Fokx]

During Covid-19 when passenger numbers were at their lowest, I worked a few Hull to Manchester trains where absolutely nobody boarded at all betweeen Hull and Leeds, not one.

On said services I’d keep the doors locked at hull until last minute, open them and stand by the local door. Then after departure, double check nobody boarded, and then at the intermediate stations where nobody was waiting or wishing to alight (as the train was empty) it would be a case of stepping onto the platform, releasing the doors and immediately closing them again, hoping back on the train and giving the driver two on the buzzer. All of this probably took place in less then 5 to 10 seconds.

When I enquired about this exact, and at the time frequent situation with my manager and control I was told we still have to stop, still have to board and still have to dispatch, even if no one is there.

 

[XAM2175]

And all it takes is one person to be in the toilet when the ticket check is done, or the guard to forget, or someone with a rover ticket to change their mind about destination, and there's a whole load of trouble.

It would theoretically be possible on services where reservations were genuinely compulsory, as you'd be able to advise passengers appropriately and issue the guard/train manager/etc a manifest of all passengers and their points of boarding and disembarking, but yes I wouldn't chance it with the current arrangements.

 

[Falcon1200]

Many years ago, before Scotrail started stabling sets at Dumfries, the last Carlisle-Dumfries returned empty to Carlisle. If there no passengers for Dumfries it was common practice for the train to turn at Annan and get the set, and of course Crew, home early. Once Trust reporting and Delay Attribution became a thing, ie post-privatisation, this could no longer be done, as a part-cancellation had to be recorded.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Many years ago, before Scotrail started stabling sets at Dumfries, the last Carlisle-Dumfries returned empty to Carlisle. If there no passengers for Dumfries it was common practice for the train to turn at Annan and get the set, and of course Crew, home early. Once Trust reporting and Delay Attribution became a thing, ie post-privatisation, this could no longer be done, as a part-cancellation had to be recorded.

Exactly. Would count as part cancellation or the train would fail PPM (Public Performance Measure) if it were authorised

 

[43066]

And all it takes is one person to be in the toilet when the ticket check is done, or the guard to forget, or someone with a rover ticket to change their mind about destination, and there's a whole load of trouble.

Absolutely. Get it authorised (in this case why bother?!), or just stop.

On said services I’d keep the doors locked at hull until last minute, open them and stand by the local door. Then after departure, double check nobody boarded, and then at the intermediate stations where nobody was waiting or wishing to alight (as the train was empty) it would be a case of stepping onto the platform, releasing the doors and immediately closing them again, hoping back on the train and giving the driver two on the buzzer. All of this probably took place in less then 5 to 10 seconds.

When I enquired about this exact, and at the time frequent situation with my manager and control I was told we still have to stop, still have to board and still have to dispatch, even if no one is there.

The right way to do it. You never know if someone is out of sight somewhere about to run onto the platform. We tended to be early everywhere when passenger numbers were at their lowest (a few weeks in April - May 2020). Plenty of time to open the doors, dwell and dispatch as normal!

 

[The exile]

It would theoretically be possible on services where reservations were genuinely compulsory, as you'd be able to advise passengers appropriately and issue the guard/train manager/etc a manifest of all passengers and their points of boarding and disembarking, but yes I wouldn't chance it with the current arrangements.

Although even a reservation compulsory service could have someone with a rover or similar flexible ticket who has reserved through to the final destination to cover all options….

 

[XAM2175]

Although even a reservation compulsory service could have someone with a rover or similar flexible ticket who has reserved through to the final destination to cover all options….

I would hope that in a "no reservation = no stop" system anybody doing such a thing would be aware of the risks!

 

[Segedunum]

I do wonder if there'd even be much point skipping the stops as you'd probably just end up getting regulated by the time you get to Edinburgh Park/Haymarket and sitting around.

I've noticed that this service seems to leave Falkirk High a good few minutes early but seems to meet another train by Polmont and ends up back on time.

 

[mmh]

It would theoretically be possible on services where reservations were genuinely compulsory, as you'd be able to advise passengers appropriately and issue the guard/train manager/etc a manifest of all passengers and their points of boarding and disembarking, but yes I wouldn't chance it with the current arrangements.

Well no, it wouldn't because by their nature request stops are unlikely to have any facility to make reservations, or any other facilities.

Moderator note: the question regarding request stops has been moved to a new thread, which can be found at the link below:

Why are some stations designated as 'request' stops?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/can-services-skip-stations-that-are-drop-off-only-if-no-one-has-a-ticket-to-them.236428/ I have asked on here before what the point of request stops are, and nobody has explained it to me. My local station is a request stop, as is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[XAM2175]

Well no, it wouldn't because by their nature request stops are unlikely to have any facility to make reservations, or any other facilities.

The expectation is that it would be done online or by telephone a certain amount of time in advance of departure, after which you're out of luck. In British terms it would effectively be a railway that only sells advance tickets.

I should say that I think you're confusing the hypothetical premise of the thread with the reality of request stops in Britain today, which obviously don't operate on these terms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The expectation is that it would be done online or by telephone a certain amount of time in advance of departure, after which you're out of luck. In British terms it would effectively be a railway that only sells advance tickets.

I should say that I think you're confusing the hypothetical premise of the thread with the reality of request stops in Britain today, which obviously don't operate on these terms.

National Express works like that. While drivers can technically sell tickets (but usually won't as it's faff for them) a coach will often completely miss a stop out (i.e. divert so they don't even pass it, if that's easier) if there's no booking to or from it.

 

[XAM2175]

National Express works like that. While drivers can technically sell tickets (but usually won't as it's faff for them) a coach will often completely miss a stop out (i.e. divert so they don't even pass it, if that's easier) if there's no booking to or from it.

Yes, train and coach services in rural New South Wales work on similar terms too. Most larger stops are scheduled and occur regardless of reservations, but there are quieter ones that will be bypassed or flown-through at line speed (as appropriate) if there aren't bookings.

Mind you, these are places that only get one or two trains/coaches per day each way, and which have required mandatory reservations for ages now, so there's not the same cultural attachment to the concept of the walk-up railway as there is on this forum.

 

[route101]

National Express works like that. While drivers can technically sell tickets (but usually won't as it's faff for them) a coach will often completely miss a stop out (i.e. divert so they don't even pass it, if that's easier) if there's no booking to or from it.

I was on a National Express the other night. The driver asked if anyone was going to Winchester, no one responded and said we will get back to Southampton quicker. We stopped at Winchester Park and Ride after all but no one got on or off.

 

[krus_aragon]

And all it takes is one person to be in the toilet when the ticket check is done, or the guard to forget, or someone with a rover ticket to change their mind about destination, and there's a whole load of trouble.

I've had that: Travelling up the Heart of Wales Line, ticket inspected by two guards en-route, but then another crew change before my request stop. I went to the toilet before my stop, and then stood by the door to await arrival. The new guard then walked past, telling me that we'd passed my station (Cilmeri), and that Builth Road was the next stop. Thankfully I was travelling onward by bike, so it wasn't as much of an inconvenience as it could have been.

 

[yorkie]

The following posts are of course correct:

Yes its still a "fail to call" because the train hasn't stopped at a station it is booked to call at. Authority to miss stations would come from the TOC controllers through a Not to stop order.

Technically it would be a 'fail to call'

There has been some confusion because request stops where brought up; this thread isn't about request stops, but there are two spin-off threads regarding request stops, which can be found at the link below:

Could a new system for request stops be introduced, such as buttons to request a stop?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/can-services-skip-stations-that-are-drop-off-only-if-no-one-has-a-ticket-to-them.236428/ As I suggested in another thread, how about bus-style Stop buttons and announcements saying "The next station is Tinytown. Please press the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Why are some stations designated as 'request' stops?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/can-services-skip-stations-that-are-drop-off-only-if-no-one-has-a-ticket-to-them.236428/ I have asked on here before what the point of request stops are, and nobody has explained it to me. My local station is a request stop, as is...

www.railforums.co.uk

If anyone wants to post anything else regarding request stops not covered by an existing thread, feel free to create a new one

 

[185143]

I've been on a TOC that runs late night services with lots of set down only calls after certain points. At least twice (well over 2 years apart, suggesting it is common practice) I've had the guard come down and ask where we're travelling to, then pass through the set down only stations no one wanted.

 

[yorkie]

Presumably that TOC has a special arrangement in place? It wouldn't be permitted without that.