Can I book this fare?

[Rimcdo]

On the national rail website I can find a first class ticket from Bury St Edmunds to Stansted Airport, via Ipswich, for £37. 90 anytime return. I need to be at a meeting in London prior to going to Stansted. I have used it a couple of times but have had one or two strange looks from the ticket inspectors upon looking at the ticket. My question is: Is this is 'valid route'?

 

[clagmonster]

The £37.90 first open return is route any permitted.
Valid routes are the shortest route by distance (which I assume is via Cambridge), any direct trains (which as far as I know there are none), or by route shown in the National Routeing Guide: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/
See the routeing guide instructions for explanations of my explanation.

Bury St Edmunds has routeing points Cambridge, Ely and Stowmarket.
The Bury St Edmunds-Stansted fares are as follows:
SOS: £15.60
SDS: n/a
SVS: n/a
CDS: n/a

Cambridge-Stansted Airport
SDS: £9

Ely-Stansted Airport
SDS: £12.20

Stowmarket-Stansted Airport
SOS: £44

The Stowmarket fare is higher than the Bury fare, so Stowmarket is not an appropriate routeing point.

As Ely and Cambridge have only standard day singles, not open singles, so no comparison is possible. I seem to remember the last time this sort of case came up in discussion (I think it was something like Liverpool-Lichfield), it was the consensious was that they couldn't sit the test to be an appropriate routeing point, so couldn't possibly pass it. Therefore, I would deduce that the only valid route is the shortest by distance, or any within 3 miles of it, which would be via Cambridge, possibly with going via Stansted Mounfitchet also being valid.

 

[John @ home]

On the national rail website I can find a first class ticket from Bury St Edmunds to Stansted Airport, via Ipswich, for £37. 90 anytime return. I need to be at a meeting in London prior to going to Stansted. I have used it a couple of times but have had one or two strange looks from the ticket inspectors upon looking at the ticket. My question is: Is this is 'valid route'?

No, it is not a permitted route.

This is not a Bury St Edmunds to Stansted Airport, via Ipswich ticket. The £37.90 First Class Anytime Return Bury St Edmunds to Stansted Airport is route Any Permitted and the only two permitted routes for this journey are:
Bury - Ely - Cambridge - Stansted
and
Bury - Newmarket - Cambridge - Stansted.

The technical details explaining why this is the case are below.

National Routeing Guide
Words in italics are quotations from the Routeing Guide.

The Routeing Points for Bury St Edmunds are Cambridge, Ely and Stowmarket.
Stansted Airport is a member of Stansted Group Routeing Point.
We need to determins which of Cambridge, Ely and Stowmarket are appropriate Routeing Points for this journey.

To do this, we compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.

All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket
types:
• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)

The OP wants to use a FOR ticket, so in the first instance we compare SOS fares. The appropriate fares are:
Bury St Edmunds - Stansted Airport route Any Permitted SOS £15.60
Cambridge - Stansted Airport route Any Permitted SDS £9.00 (no SOS fare).
Ely - Stansted Airport route Any Permitted SDS £12.20 (no SOS fare).
Stowmarket - Stansted Airport route Not London SOS £19.40
Stowmarket - Stansted Airport route + Any Permitted SOS £44.00

For Stowmarket, we are able to compare SOS fares and this shows that Stowmarket is not an appropriate Routeing Points for this journey. For Cambridge and Ely, we are not able to compare the same fare type. So we must compare SDS with SOS fares. This shows that Cambridge and Ely are both appropriate Routeing Points for this journey.

Permitted routes for Cambridge - Stansted and for Ely - Stansted are both shown on map CN only.
Map CN allows Ely - Waterbeach - Cambridge - Stansted and Ely - Bury St Edmunds - Newmarket - Cambridge - Stansted only.

So permitted routes for Bury St Edmunds to Stansted Airport route Any Permitted are:
Bury - Ely - Cambridge - Stansted
and
Bury - Newmarket - Cambridge - Stansted.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/

 

[tony_mac]

As Ely and Cambridge have only standard day singles, not open singles, so no comparison is possible. I seem to remember the last time this sort of case came up in discussion (I think it was something like Liverpool-Lichfield), it was the consensious was that they couldn't sit the test to be an appropriate routeing point, so couldn't possibly pass it.

I would disagree with that.
Nobody actually knows what the appropriate action is; the routeing guide was butchered to only compare single types, and doesn't really make sense any more in many cases.

It obviously wasn't intended to disallow all routeing points where there is only a different 'type' of single ticket available - just that whoever changed it didn't consider that possibility, because they didn't know what they were doing.
Realistically, what difference does it make that one is an Anytime Day Single, and one is an Anytime Single?

Anyway, while the routeing guide says it isn't valid - Nationalrail and thetrainline both say that it is valid, and are quite happy to sell the tickets for it.

 

[clagmonster]

Tony, the routeing guide explicitly states:
"All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket
types"
Note the use of the word one, inmplying that you should compare using just the one ticket type. I agree that probably isn't what was intended, but I think it was the consensious last time. To me the following paragraph doesn't make any sense:
"In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison
may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination
station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the
Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison
purposes."
I assume it doesn't make sense to me because the wording is left from before the change of the fare check rule, but it could be that this can be used to allow Ely as a routeing point.

 

[tony_mac]

I agree with you that this is what it says - just that I think it is obviously not meant to say that, but is the result of a stupid change which wasn't thought through.

In general it doesn't make sense to compare different fares - but if the return fares can be compared ok, and the single fares can't be compared due to a technicality, then what are we supposed to do?

While it doesn't actually say (which shows how poorly thought-out it is), I would suggest that finding any matching fare-types is a more sensible option than simply disallowing the routeing point completely - and that comparing Anytime Singles and Anytime Day Singles is also reasonably sensible as they are basically the same ticket.

I can't believe that yorkie would have agreed with this consensus!

I agree that the rest of the wording doesn't make sense any more, which just shows that this change wasn't made after considering all the possibilities - it wasn't even made after considering the next paragraph!

 

[ashworth]

Anyway, while the routeing guide says it isn't valid - Nationalrail and thetrainline both say that it is valid, and are quite happy to sell the tickets for it.

There are so many fares that are bookable online that allow routes that perhaps are not 100% valid. However, many are very useful to know about and can save you large amounts of money in addition to allowing you to travel an interesting or sometimes more convenient route. If I am almost 100% certain that I am going to be making a journey on a particular day, at a particular time by one of these routes I book it online, often complete with seat reservations, and I keep the printout of the route and train times details. Then whatever strange looks you may get it would be hard for anyone to argue with you anbd challenge you.

In my experience it seems to be mainly Day Returns over longer distances that have these less direct routes available. They are also far more often available via East Coast/Southern/London Midland than via Trainline operated sites, but not always the case, so it is worth checking both.
Some of the cheap Day Return fares that I have either used or may use in the future are:

Nottingham to Prestatyn via Liverpool (£22)
This is very useful for day trips to Liverpool as the cheapest return fare from Nottingham to Liverpool is approx £45.

Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds
This is only £18.
Good to use for a day trip to Manchester if you want an interesting round trip out via Leeds and back via the Hope Valley. This is also useful for day returns to stations between Leeds and Manchester such as Bradford and Halifax where the normal fare is approx £30.

Carlton (Nottingham) to Sheffield via Doncaster (£!0.90)
Very useful for returns from Nottingham to Doncaster where the fare is just over £20. Or even from Newark to Doncaster where the fare is £17

Ulveston to Carlisle via Lancaster (£15.50)
Already discused on another thread how this is avialble online but that is probably the fare for via Barrow as the fare via Lancaster should be £39.20.
However, the £15.50 fare can be booked online complete with seat reservations.

Most of these will allow half price travel. These are just tickets bookable online that I know about. There must be hundreds more.

 

[tony_mac]

Thanks for the list!
It's more often the other way round - the routeing guide says that they are valid, but you can't buy them.

But the national rail website says 'The journey planner applies the official National Rail Routing Guide' - so you should be able to rely on that if it says its valid.

 

[Rimcdo]

So, if I can book this return fare on the NXEA website and have seats reserved, I can travel on the train? Can I then break the journey at Liverpool Street? I can book this ticket via Liverpool Street also. Thanks for your help.