Can extra freight be accommodated via Hampstead Heath?

[Class15]

Hi all,

I noticed this post in a past thread by @Bald Rick :

And, also, you cant get all the freight via Hampstead Heath, and the DC line tunnels would need reboring to take OLE.

I am curious about this; what is stopping freight from running via Hampstead Heath instead of Primrose Hill? Whenever the Primrose Hill route or WCML slows are blocked the freight always seems to cope fine via Hampstead Heath, and all Primrose Hill freights have a gap in the Overground service to get between Stratford and Camden Road, so why can’t they stay in the same gap up to Kensal Green Junction? I’m guessing the issue is for westbound trains crossing at Kensal Green Junction, but for eastbound trains it’s fine and I expect the conflicting moves at Kensal Green Junction can be timetabled efficiently if required.

 

[Harpo]

Lack of a junction from the GEML to the T&H that avoids Stratford.

Getting a route in the Forest Gate area needs land. The problem is so severe/expensive it never gets far beyond desktop assessment and all attention turns back to the Bury route.

 

[Class15]

Lack of a junction from the GEML to the T&H that avoids Stratford.

Getting a route in the Forest Gate area needs land. The problem is so severe/expensive it never gets far beyond desktop assessment and all attention turns back to the Bury route.

I was actually referring to the route via Kentish Town West, simply going right at Camden Road, instead of left. Although I agree that a connection at Forest Gate is ideal, and more effective than the Bury route (wires being the main factor)

 

[Harpo]

I was actually referring to the route via Kentish Town West, simply going right at Camden Road, instead of left. Although I agree that a connection at Forest Gate is ideal, and more effective than the Bury route (wires being the main factor)

Aha! I’d guess that, with no regular passenger service, Camden Road to Primrose Hill maybe a useful goods loop??

 

[Class15]

Aha! I’d guess that, with no regular passenger service, Camden Road to Primrose Hill maybe a useful goods loop??

At the minute, yes, but if a passenger service was returned to Primrose Hill or the WCML slows were used more intensively, it might be necessary to divert some freight via Gospel Oak. I am interested in whether it’s possible. I get that at the minute there is no need to do it.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Hi all,

I noticed this post in a past thread by @Bald Rick :



I am curious about this; what is stopping freight from running via Hampstead Heath instead of Primrose Hill? Whenever the Primrose Hill route or WCML slows are blocked the freight always seems to cope fine via Hampstead Heath, and all Primrose Hill freights have a gap in the Overground service to get between Stratford and Camden Road, so why can’t they stay in the same gap up to Kensal Green Junction? I’m guessing the issue is for westbound trains crossing at Kensal Green Junction, but for eastbound trains it’s fine and I expect the conflicting moves at Kensal Green Junction can be timetabled efficiently if required.

A lot of freight does run via both Hampstead Heath and Camden Road etc. Obviously some of the freight at Hampstead Heath comes off the GOBLIN route, but not all. There is little spare capacity on the North London Line so why overload that route unnecessarily? Incidentally, freight trains are frequently held for lengthy periods at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury awaiting their path.

 

[zwk500]

I am curious about this; what is stopping freight from running via Hampstead Heath instead of Primrose Hill?

Other trains, mostly. The overground service is very intense on that section.

 

[Class15]

Other trains, mostly.

In what way? When the Primrose Hill line is shut, all the trains booked that way go via Gospel Oak, and manage fine. The line is shut so often that basically every train booked that way has to have a path that allows it to be diverted via Gospel Oak.

 

[Bald Rick]

In what way? When the Primrose Hill line is shut, all the trains booked that way go via Gospel Oak, and manage fine. The line is shut so often that basically every train booked that way has to have a path that allows it to be diverted via Gospel Oak.

When is the Primrose Hill line shut, and what are the traffic level in the line through Hampstead Heath at those time?

 

[MarkyT]

A suggested way for GE freights to turn north just before Stratford. Curve radius ~175m. Close to east end of Stratford station, especially platform 10A, affecting signal overlaps. Might need to be considered in conjunction with wider Stratford reconfiguration.

To reach Goblin, grade separation at South Tottenham Jn, crossing the WAML, would be beneficial. Would allow the very tight chord there (~130m radius!) to be eased a little.

 

[Class15]

When is the Primrose Hill line shut, and what are the traffic level in the line through Hampstead Heath at those time?

I could make a list of the individual times based on charlwood house data, but I’ll just say that whenever there is a problem on the Primrose Hill, it’s not exactly a top priority to be fixed quickly due to the fact that there is an easy diversionary route. Compare that to, for example, a problem on the Felixstowe branch.

Look for the Friday just before Easter (18/04 I think), and you’ll see everything booked via Primrose Hill going via Gospel Oak. Nothing seems to have been taken out or sent via Ely. The paths are there.

A suggested way for GE freights to turn north just before Stratford. Curve radius ~175m. Close to east end of Stratford station, especially platform 10A, affecting signal overlaps. Might need to be considered in conjunction with wider Stratford reconfiguration.
View attachment 173256
To reach Goblin, grade separation at South Tottenham Jn, crossing the WAML, would be beneficial. Would allow the very tight chord there (~130m radius!) to be eased a little.
View attachment 173258

It would be fabulous but I just think that Manor Park is easier.

 

[Bald Rick]

A suggested way for GE freights to turn north just before Stratford. Curve radius ~175m. Close to east end of Stratford station, especially platform 10A, affecting signal overlaps. Might need to be considered in conjunction with wider Stratford reconfiguration.
View attachment 173256

This would be extraordinarily expensive. The ‘spare’ land that it goes across is worth the best part of £100m

To reach Goblin, grade separation at South Tottenham Jn, crossing the WAML, would be beneficial. Would allow the very tight chord there (~130m radius!) to be eased a little.
View attachment 173258

And this clashes directly with the grade separation needed for Crossrail2, and one of the Crossrail 2 tunnelling worksites.

I could make a list of the individual times based on charlwood house data, but I’ll just say that whenever there is a problem on the Primrose Hill, it’s not exactly a top priority to be fixed quickly due to the fact that there is an easy diversionary route. Compare that to, for example, a problem on the Felixstowe branch.

Look for the Friday just before Easter (18/04 I think), and you’ll see everything booked via Primrose Hill going via Gospel Oak. Nothing seems to have been taken out or sent via Ely. The paths are there.

The ‘paths’ aren’t there. Trains will be delayed - maybe not obviously, but they will be. It is down to the skill of the signallers and controllers that a route is found for them.

 

[MarkyT]

This would be extraordinarily expensive. The ‘spare’ land that it goes across is worth the best part of £100m

I recall that's where the big globe thing was proposed. There could still be very valuable development above such a new chord.

And this clashes directly with the grade separation needed for Crossrail2, and one of the Crossrail 2 tunnelling worksites.

The 2015 consultation interactive mapping shows a new portal just north of the existing chord, so possibly not mutually exclusive concepts. If the new freight chord was already elevated towards the WAML flyover where it bisected the crossrail alignment, that might even make it a bit easier to launch TBMs beneath.

 

[Class15]

The ‘paths’ aren’t there. Trains will be delayed - maybe not obviously, but they will be. It is down to the skill of the signallers and controllers that a route is found for them.

As I said, on Good Friday, the WCML slows appear to be shut so everything is via Gospel Oak. The only clash I can see is between 4L48 and 4L67, and 4L67 could be put in an earlier path to Westbourne Road Jn if need be.

As I said, the Primrose Hill line is shut so often that freights basically need an alternative path; for eastbound trains this is super easy as they can just be put in the same passenger gap at Kensal Green Jn rather than joining at Camden. For westbound this is slightly more tricky as they need to cross at Kensal Green.

I’m sorry, but, as a local of this line, I can’t really accept that the ‘paths aren’t there’, when they are.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I said, on Good Friday, the WCML slows appear to be shut so everything is via Gospel Oak. The only clash I can see is between 4L48 and 4L67, and 4L67 could be put in an earlier path to Westbourne Road Jn if need be.

There’s a lot less freight on Good Friday.

 

[Class15]

There’s a lot less freight on Good Friday.

But everything still has to be scheduled, even if it doesn’t run.

 

[Bald Rick]

But everything still has to be scheduled, even if it doesn’t run.

err, no it doesnt.

 

[Class15]

err, no it doesnt.

Check Gospel Oak on Good Friday. I think you’ll find that all the regular freight has paths in.

 

[The Planner]

Check Gospel Oak on Good Friday. I think you’ll find that all the regular freight has paths in.

Regular freight, which the FOCs bid for STP. They will cancel a lot off.

 

[Class15]

Regular freight, which the FOCs bid for STP. They will cancel a lot off.

What I am trying to say is that all the freight is in the schedule. That means it can be accommodated, whether it is cancelled or not it has been put in the timetable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Check Gospel Oak on Good Friday. I think you’ll find that all the regular freight has paths in.

You‘ll alsp find a lot of it cancelled.