Cambridge North platform 3 stopping location

[weeklycommuter]

The stopping positions at all three stations mentioned on this thread (Cambridge North, Wivenhoe, & Thorpe Le Soken) have all been moved purely in an effort to reduce the number of stop-short incidents.

What exactly happened in the stop-short incidents at Cambridge North Station Platform 3?

 

[dk1]

What exactly happened in the stop-short incidents at Cambridge North Station Platform 3?

Stop short and release I would imagine.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Don't people look down before getting off the train? I always do so I don't fall down the gap

 

[weeklycommuter]

Stop short and release I would imagine.

I am puzzled as to why this would happen at Cambridge North Station terminating Platform 3 and I do not know the number of incidents or whether it was a 5 car or 10 car class 720. It has not been considered to be a problem for the seven years since Cambridge North Station opened in 2017 and everyone was happy to agree in 2017 that short trains would stop under the canopy at Platform 3. I assume it is now only Greater Anglia 5 car and 10 car class 720s that use Cambridge North Platform 3 but previously some GTR trains called there. I think the canopy was cut short to save money, clearly a longer canopy would have been better. It would have been better if platform 2 had been the terminating platform and platform 3 the down through platform as trains returning South from platform 2 could have switched to the Southbound track quickly after leaving the platform whereas from platform 3 they have to travel on the wrong track through the Fen Road Level Crossing and only switch to the correct track after going through the Fen Road Level Crossing. However I expect this would have made no difference to the stop-short issue.
Surely it should be possible to resolve this and ensure the trains always stop at the correct position. It is a lot more complicated at Elsenham where the driver of a 10 car class 720 train both ways has to stop three or four cars after the end of the platform to ensure the correct carriages for which the doors are opened are at the platform and the manually operated level crossing is not blocked. The following video is from 2019 so the train is a class 317 but it shows the two short platforms staggered after the level crossing in both directions. If trains can reliably stop in the correct position in both directions at Elsenham I am not sure why stop-short is considered a problem at Cambridge North Station Platform 3.

Elsenham (Essex)

www.greateranglia.co.uk

Don’t get stuck on the train
If you’re travelling from London or Bishop Stortford to Elsenham station, please travel in the back seven coaches of the train. This is for Greater Anglia trains with 10 coaches only as the doors on the front three coaches will not open at Elsenham.
If you're travelling from Cambridge to Elsenham station, please travel in the back six coaches of the train. This applies to Greater Anglia trains with 10 coaches only as the doors on the front four coaches will not open at Elsenham.

 

[dk1]

I am puzzled as to why this would happen at Cambridge North Station terminating Platform 3 and I do not know the number of incidents or whether it was a 5 car or 10 car class 720. It has not been considered to be a problem for the seven years since Cambridge North Station opened in 2017 and everyone was happy to agree in 2017 that short trains would stop under the canopy at Platform 3. I assume it is now only Greater Anglia 5 car and 10 car class 720s that use Cambridge North Platform 3 but previously some GTR trains called there. I think the canopy was cut short to save money, clearly a longer canopy would have been better. It would have been better if platform 2 had been the terminating platform and platform 3 the down through platform as trains returning South from platform 2 could have switched to the Southbound track quickly after leaving the platform whereas from platform 3 they have to travel on the wrong track through the Fen Road Level Crossing and only switch to the correct track after going through the Fen Road Level Crossing. However I expect this would have made no difference to the stop-short issue.
Surely it should be possible to resolve this and ensure the trains always stop at the correct position. It is a lot more complicated at Elsenham where the driver of a 10 car class 720 train both ways has to stop three or four cars after the end of the platform to ensure the correct carriages for which the doors are opened are at the platform and the manually operated level crossing is not blocked. The following video is from 2019 so the train is a class 317 but it shows the two short platforms staggered after the level crossing in both directions. If trains can reliably stop in the correct position in both directions at Elsenham I am not sure why stop-short is considered a problem at Cambridge North Station Platform 3.

No idea but something has obviously happened/ changed since. We just have to go along with it.

 

[arb]

This is probably obvious to anyone who uses the Greater Anglia peak-time services to Ely (which I don't normally, but did this evening). But since it hasn't been mentioned in the thread:

It's not just Cambridge North platform 3 where Greater Anglia now inconvenience passengers and stop at the far end of the platforms. For the through services to Ely, it also happens at Cambridge North platform 2, and at Waterbeach.

I was quite surprised when we didn't go all the way to the end of Ely platform 3 and block the reversals of the East Midlands services

 

[dk1]

This is probably obvious to anyone who uses the Greater Anglia peak-time services to Ely (which I don't normally, but did this evening). But since it hasn't been mentioned in the thread:

It's not just Cambridge North platform 3 where Greater Anglia now inconvenience passengers and stop at the far end of the platforms. For the through services to Ely, it also happens at Cambridge North platform 2, and at Waterbeach.

I was quite surprised when we didn't go all the way to the end of Ely platform 3 and block the reversals of the East Midlands services

755s don’t go to the end of platform 2 at Cambridge North or at Waterbeach. There are 3-4 car stop boards at both.

 

[arb]

This was a 5-car train: the ones that are normally used for Liverpool Street to Cambridge North platform 3, but extended to Ely in the peaks. Class 720?

 

[dk1]

This was a 5-car train: the ones that are normally used for Liverpool Street to Cambridge North platform 3, but extended to Ely in the peaks. Class 720?

Yes class 720s are used on those. Class 755s are used on the Stansted-Norwich route and we stop in the sensible position at these stations that we always have. We however on this route can only ever operate with a single unit.

 

[ac6000cw]

Is the 720 problem at Cambridge North platform 2 and Waterbeach just due to a lack of '720 5-car' stop signs?

 

[dk1]

Is the 720 problem at Cambridge North platform 2 and Waterbeach just due to a lack of '720 5-car' stop signs?

Certainly not.

 

[arb]

At Cambridge North, there is a 5-car stop sign in the same place as the 10-car stop sign, on both platforms 2 and 3.

At Waterbeach, I didn't see a 5-car stop sign last night (I can try and look more closely tonight!). There is a "S" sign (in the same font/style as Greater Anglia's 10-car sign) right at the end of the platform. But ... there is then a 10-car sign beyond the end of the platform (entirely reasonably, because the platform isn't long enough for 10 car trains). So, given that they have an explicit "10", I find it a bit odd that they decided to have an "S" rather than an explicit "5" as well. That said, I also don't recall if there are still 4 and/or 8-car signs for Great Northern, or if they're also using the "S".

But Waterbeach is more interesting. Let's assume that, as suggested previously in the thread, the point of all of this is to cover the case when a driver of a 10-car train forgets that they have 10 cars, and accidentally stops at the 5 (or S for Waterbeach) sign, causing some doors to miss the platform. In that case, moving the stopping point for 5 cars at Waterbeach from the earliest possible point (best for passengers) to the latest possible point (worst for passengers) doesn't actually fix this! A 10-car train stopping at the S at Waterbeach will still have the back 2 or 3 carriages off the platform. Admittedly that is fewer carriages than if there was a 5-car sign in the most convenient place for passengers, so there will be fewer people blindly stepping out of an unplatformed door and breaking their legs, but still a couple of carriage-loads of absent-minded people. And therefore, from a driver perspective, the incident itself would presumably have to be handled in exactly the same way?

Final thought: do Greater Anglia ever run 10 cars on the peak extras to Ely? I don't use them very often, but whenever I have done, they've always been 5. RealTimeTrains says that they are all 5-car today.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

At Cambridge North, there is a 5-car stop sign in the same place as the 10-car stop sign, on both platforms 2 and 3.

At Waterbeach, I didn't see a 5-car stop sign last night (I can try and look more closely tonight!). There is a "S" sign (in the same font/style as Greater Anglia's 10-car sign) right at the end of the platform. But ... there is then a 10-car sign beyond the end of the platform (entirely reasonably, because the platform isn't long enough for 10 car trains). So, given that they have an explicit "10", I find it a bit odd that they decided to have an "S" rather than an explicit "5" as well. That said, I also don't recall if there are still 4 and/or 8-car signs for Great Northern, or if they're also using the "S".

But Waterbeach is more interesting. Let's assume that, as suggested previously in the thread, the point of all of this is to cover the case when a driver of a 10-car train forgets that they have 10 cars, and accidentally stops at the 5 (or S for Waterbeach) sign, causing some doors to miss the platform. In that case, moving the stopping point for 5 cars at Waterbeach from the earliest possible point (best for passengers) to the latest possible point (worst for passengers) doesn't actually fix this! A 10-car train stopping at the S at Waterbeach will still have the back 2 or 3 carriages off the platform. Admittedly that is fewer carriages than if there was a 5-car sign in the most convenient place for passengers, so there will be fewer people blindly stepping out of an unplatformed door and breaking their legs, but still a couple of carriage-loads of absent-minded people. And therefore, from a driver perspective, the incident itself would presumably have to be handled in exactly the same way?

Final thought: do Greater Anglia ever run 10 cars on the peak extras to Ely? I don't use them very often, but whenever I have done, they've always been 5. RealTimeTrains says that they are all 5-car today.

No I don't think they run 10 cars north of Cambridge North

 

[MikeWM]

But Waterbeach is more interesting.

Well, yes -the logical conclusion of all this is that we should get rid of stopping boards entirely and every train should just stop level with the end of every platform, however (in)convenient or sensible that would be. But as you point out, that doesn't help with situations where the stopping boards are beyond the end of the platform.

Though then it does make you question why stopping boards on platforms were ever put in in the first place. Is it simply that in the past the railway was rather more accommodating to the needs of passengers rather than having a paranoid attitude to trying to avert a specific set of obscure and esoteric 'safety' issues (while neglecting the other safety issues such changes cause, eg. passengers running along wet platforms or down wet stairs)?

Admittedly that is fewer carriages than if there was a 5-car sign in the most convenient place for passengers, so there will be fewer people blindly stepping out of an unplatformed door and breaking their legs, but still a couple of carriage-loads of absent-minded people.

And while blocking the level crossing too - and we know the train stopping on the level crossing there is apparently the worst thing ever, because that was why we couldn't have 8-car trains north of Cambridge until the platforms were extended.

Final thought: do Greater Anglia ever run 10 cars on the peak extras to Ely? I don't use them very often, but whenever I have done, they've always been 5. RealTimeTrains says that they are all 5-car today.

I'm not sure if they are allowed, but I've never seen it happen.

Then again, while we're talking about inconvenient mysteries, I still don't understand why the 1707 and 1807 ex-Liverpool Street don't stop at Cambridge North when the other two afternoon Ely terminators do. Stopping at the far end of the platform is inconvenient, but not stopping at all is even more so!

 

[wagnaga]

Then again, while we're talking about inconvenient mysteries, I still don't understand why the 1707 and 1807 ex-Liverpool Street don't stop at Cambridge North when the other two afternoon Ely terminators do. Stopping at the far end of the platform is inconvenient, but not stopping at all is even more so!

This has caught me out in the past as an occasional traveller resulting in an unexpected trip to Water each fortunately with a rather well timed return train.

 

[arb]

Have Greater Anglia now started using the 10-car stopping position at Waterbeach for 5-car 720s, causing the front of the train to be off the platform even though the entire 5-car train could fit?

I don't know for sure if they are, but the last few times I've travelled on their 5-car 18:19 service from Cambridge to Ely, there have been announcements that anybody wanting to leave at Waterbeach has to move to the back 2 carriages. I find this so hard to believe that I really hope it's just an incorrect automated announcement. But, either way, it's not at all helpful - after the announcement has been made I've watched people will full-size bikes (the bike area is usually near the front of the train) struggle through multiple carriages of 3+2 seating with their bike in order to get to the carriage that they're being told to exit from.

Unfortunately I've always been sat towards the back of the train, on the wrong side to see the platform clearly, and it's been dark, so I can't be certain exactly where the trains are stopping. I meant to sit in the front carriage of one of these trains this week to find out for certain, but fate has conspired against me and I haven't travelled home at the right times to use these services, and I now won't be commuting again until the new year.

 

[dk1]

Have Greater Anglia now started using the 10-car stopping position at Waterbeach for 5-car 720s, causing the front of the train to be off the platform even though the entire 5-car train could fit?

I don't know for sure if they are, but the last few times I've travelled on their 5-car 18:19 service from Cambridge to Ely, there have been announcements that anybody wanting to leave at Waterbeach has to move to the back 2 carriages. I find this so hard to believe that I really hope it's just an incorrect automated announcement. But, either way, it's not at all helpful - after the announcement has been made I've watched people will full-size bikes (the bike area is usually near the front of the train) struggle through multiple carriages of 3+2 seating with their bike in order to get to the carriage that they're being told to exit from.

Unfortunately I've always been sat towards the back of the train, on the wrong side to see the platform clearly, and it's been dark, so I can't be certain exactly where the trains are stopping. I meant to sit in the front carriage of one of these trains this week to find out for certain, but fate has conspired against me and I haven't travelled home at the right times to use these services, and I now won't be commuting again until the new year.

They’ve been covered up (and blown off) since first put up. I don’t know of any GA services operating above 5-cars that stop at Waterbeach.

 

[paulmch]

The last time I used a GA service to Waterbeach the driver made an announcement telling people to ignore the automated ones as there's some sort of software issue going on.

 

[dk1]

The last time I used a GA service to Waterbeach the driver made an announcement telling people to ignore the automated ones as there's some sort of software issue going on.

It throws many regulars now so used to 8-car GNs when I stop with a 3/4-car 755.

 

[greaterangrier]

The same software issue is happening at Great Bentley/Alresford where users in the front 3 carriages are told to move backwards of a 5 car set, even though the whole train fits in the platform. Ironically, the advice for Alresford isn't even correct, as it should be that passengers in the rear 3 carriages move forwards.