Booking office problems

[Wolfie]

Last night at about 8pm I bought three return anytime tickets for use today at a London terminal (Charing Cross). I clearly stated that these tickets were for use early this morning today - on services that do not run from that terminal.

One of these tickets, bought for a foreign colleague, was from another London terminal (Kings Cross) to Huntingdon. The other two were for me from boundary zone 2 (I have an annual Zone 1 & 2 travelcard) to Stevenage and the other from Stevenage to Huntingdon - you can see I am applying lessons learnt on here as splitting saved £1.50.

However, late last night I realised that one of my tickets had been issued with yesterdays date on it. At Kings Cross this morning I was told that the situation could only be sorted at Charing Cross. At Charing Cross the same booking office worker who had served me advised me that the only course available was to refund the ticket issued in error and buy a new ticket for today. In fact she implied that it was my fault that I had not seen her error!

Questions:
a Was she correct about the refund and repurchase?
b How likely is it that there will be an attempt made to charge an admin fee against the ticket refund?
c How likely is a complaint against any such charge likely to be?

Additional info:
I have receipts for both transactions – the misissued ticket was the second of the three she produced last night.

There would have been no sense in buying an Anytime ticket for use yesterday as when I made the purchase was well into off-peak.

The original error was not mine.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm a bit puzzled. Have you already swapped the tickets over? Did you get charged an admin fee? You won't be charged after the event for an admin fee, it would be deducted from the refund given.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm a bit puzzled. Have you already swapped the tickets over? Did you get charged an admin fee? You won't be charged after the event for an admin fee, it would be deducted from the refund given.

Mike

I paid by credit card yesterday. At CX this morning the booking office insisted I complete a refund form for the ticket in question and buy a new ticket. I was told I would hear within 28 days about a refund and an admin fee was not mentioned BUT the form itself (on the back) mentions NCOC25 and the possibility of an admin fee.

 

[OwlMan]

......However, late last night I realised that one of my tickets had been issued with yesterdays date on it. At Kings Cross this morning I was told that the situation could only be sorted at Charing Cross. At Charing Cross the same booking office worker who had served me advised me that the only course available was to refund the ticket issued in error and buy a new ticket for today. In fact she implied that it was my fault that I had not seen her error!..........The original error was not mine.

Thanks in advance.

The original error may not have been yours but under the NRCOC your are required to check that the correct tickets have been issued

D. YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
21. Buying tickets As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold
you the ticket.

I always check the tickets issued to me at a booking office and am surprised that you didn't

Peter

 

[Wolfie]

The original error may not have been yours but under the NRCOC your are required to check that the correct tickets have been issued




I always check the tickets issued to me at a booking office and am surprised that you didn't

Peter

Thanks for this – interesting how it putting the burden on the consumer complies with the company’s obligations under the Suupply of Goods and Services Act 1982........:

“The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, which applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, states that a person providing a service must do so with 'reasonable care and skill'.”

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdot...2=1074400662&type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792523

 

[OwlMan]

.......

 

[MikeWh]

Mike

I paid by credit card yesterday. At CX this morning the booking office insisted I complete a refund form for the ticket in question and buy a new ticket. I was told I would hear within 28 days about a refund and an admin fee was not mentioned BUT the form itself (on the back) mentions NCOC25 and the possibility of an admin fee.

Ah, right,

The only time I've ever needed to fill out a form was when I handed back my season ticket after being made redundant. Mind you, the only other times I've needed refunds were always for tickets that had only just been bought and which couldn't have been used yet, which might be why I've not had to fill out a form.

What I would suggest is that you keep copies of everything possible. Yes the error was theirs, yes you should have spotted it, hopefully they will just refund the erroneous ticket. If they don't (ie they do add an admin fee) then write back enclosing copies of all the tickets and explain that you saw the date correct on the first ticket etc etc etc. The fact that they will have consecutive numbers should reinforce your claim. Ultimately you have to decide how far to go to get £10 refunded.

You will, of course, scrutinise every aspect of every ticket in future.

 

[Greenback]

A form does need to be completed unless the ticket can be non issued - usually this is within a short of time of purchase as Mike Wh says above. A clerk would not be able to non issue a ticket on the following day without it looking very suspicious.

I very much doubt an admin fee will be charged. To do so would ony invite attention to the original issuing error! Yes, ther eis a box on the form for the admin charge, but it doesn't have to be completed. The refund may take s few days to appear, depending on how often the station or TOC does a refund processing run.

 

[jd]

As others have stated, you should really check your tickets as soon as you get them, just as you might check your change. Tickets can, as others have again stated, only be non-issued within a certain number of minutes after being sold, otherwise it's an accounting irregularity on that member of staff's till.

KGX were probably correct to say you have to go to CHX, I've heard of that before. As it was so long later when you brought them back, you would've had to fill in a form, yeah. I wouldn't have thought they'd charge you, TOCs (and most companies generally in my experience) will lean in favour of the customer in cases like this to keep you happy and avoid you kicking up a fuss/going to somebody like Passenger Focus or the press about it, etc.

 

[Fred26]

KGX were probably correct to say you have to go to CHX, I've heard of that before.

Staff in either of Kings Cross ticket offices can't issue a refund for a ticket sold by another TOC. Physically, obviously, any refund can be done anywhere, but the clerk would get into trouble for issuing a refund sold by someone else.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Kings Cross could and IMO should have said that they can take the refund in, but that they can't authorise it and would have to post it to Charing Cross for them to deal with.

It is your responsibility to reasonably check that the ticket is correct, some things like validity and routeing may rely on a clerks knowledge, but I hardly think the date counts for that.

That said, I don't believe you should be penalised for a clerks error and the railway can, and usually does, drop the admin fee in these cases.

Non-Issues should (and on Fastis can only) be done on the day of issue. Some TOCs stipulate 20 minutes as a maximum time limit, but it can vary. After that period it is refund form and pay again.

A complaint probably wouldn't achieve anything, mistakes like this probably happen somewhere on the NR network every day, some get noticed and corrected straight away, others are missed, it's human nature.

 

[Wolfie]

HHF

I fully recognise that mistakes can and do happen and hae no desire to get anyone into any trouble. On the other hand I also have no desire to lose £10. So long as I get a full refund I will not be rattling any cages.....

Interestingly the receipt I have shows that it was the middle of three tickets that was misissued.

 

[Greenback]

HHF is of course correct that King's Cross could and should have accepted the refund form and passed it on to Charing Cross. Reading used to receive refund applications for all sorts of other station,s which were then sent off to the appropriate location.

Mind you, soem people preferred to take them themselves when you told them it would probably take a couple of days for the forms to arrive!

 

[Wolfie]

HHF is of course correct that King's Cross could and should have accepted the refund form and passed it on to Charing Cross. Reading used to receive refund applications for all sorts of other station,s which were then sent off to the appropriate location.

Mind you, soem people preferred to take them themselves when you told them it would probably take a couple of days for the forms to arrive!

Charing Cross did NOT process the form then and there (ie in terms of actually actioning a refund....) - indeed I was told to go back if I had not heard within 28 days!:cry:

If Southeastern do try and charge me an admin fee I will take County Court (ie 'small claims' court) action - fee is £25 for a claim of up to £300 - I suspect Southeastern will neither wish to incur the legal fees (non-refundable if they win) nor risk any sort of perecedent for the applicability of the Supply of Goods and Services Act and/or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations to the railway industry. I have seen it argued on here that due to the NCOC this legislation does not apply. I have never seen any clear statement from Parliament or indeed Government departments (and I work for one!) to this effect - TOCs might hope to convince the public that this is the case but I suspect they know damned well that in fact it is not! Why exactly should the railway industry be exempt from legislation that applies to EVERY company operating in the UK market?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The station can't issue credit card refunds or travel voucher refunds, but the point made is that Kings Cross should IMO have offered to take in the refund and send it to the issueing station.

The issueing station (Charing Cross) then has the refund authorised by a local manager (depending on location and staff, this can take a couple of days). In the case of Credit Card refunds, it is then sent to a central processing place within the TOC for refund back onto the card. This is why it can take upto 28 days, although I would be suprised if you have to wait beyond 14!

I doubt you would be charged the admin fee, unless you didn't put in the 'reason' section that it was clerk error or tell the clerk you handed it to.

 

[jd]

Charing Cross did NOT process the form then and there (ie in terms of actually actioning a refund....) - indeed I was told to go back if I had not heard within 28 days!:cry:

If Southeastern do try and charge me an admin fee I will take County Court (ie 'small claims' court) action - fee is £25 for a claim of up to £300 - I suspect Southeastern will neither wish to incur the legal fees (non-refundable if they win) nor risk any sort of perecedent for the applicability of the Supply of Goods and Services Act and/or the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations to the railway industry. I have seen it argued on here that due to the NCOC this legislation does not apply. I have never seen any clear statement from Parliament or indeed Government departments (and I work for one!) to this effect - TOCs might hope to convince the public that this is the case but I suspect they know damned well that in fact it is not! Why exactly should the railway industry be exempt from legislation that applies to EVERY company operating in the UK market?

I'd suggest putting your case to SE as to why you think you should be excempt from the admin fee rather than rushing off to the small claims court - you'd be more likely successful trying to persuade the train company to waive the fee in your case than you would be taking legal action, I think.

But of course, as myself and others have said here, you're quite unlikely to be charged any sort of admin fee anyway, so it's probably entirely irrelevant.

 

[barrykas]

HHF is of course correct that King's Cross could and should have accepted the refund form and passed it on to Charing Cross. Reading used to receive refund applications for all sorts of other station,s which were then sent off to the appropriate location.

Under the refund procedure given in "The Manual", Kings Cross should technically have sent it to Southeastern's Customer Services Manager, from where it'd most likely be sent to Charing Cross for processing and authorisation before being sent back up the chain to their central accounts department (if they don't process them in house) for the refund to be made.

And that toing and froing in the post would be at the customer's risk (as it's sent by standard First or Second Class post) and delay the refund (because of the inherent delays in the postal system). Hence why clerks advise you to go back to a Ticket Office run by the issuing company where possible.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Even if it was 'lost in the post' if the clerk and subsequent persons do their job correctly there will be a paper trail to follow and the refund can still happen. In any case the offer should have been made.

 

[Greenback]

You're right of course. Things will have changed with the withdrawal of APTIS and centralisation, but we used to do our own refund processing in Reading. I can believe that it would all now be sent to Head Office or somewhere to be done in one go.

If the original refund does go missing, the pink copy should allow the refund to go through, although this is why soemtimes the refund can take a while.

 

[barrykas]

Oddly enough, this very situation occurred to me today.

Passenger had bought a ticket from one of the Self-Service Ticket Machines at Victoria yesterday, but had missed the last train and wanted to travel today instead.

Not our company, so I couldn't do a quick exchange, and the passenger couldn't get back to a Southern station, so I duly took the refund in, with no admin fee as she was buying a new ticket for the same journey, logged it in our refund register, and it'll be winging its way to Southern Customer Services...in Bristol(!)...tomorrow.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Wolfie]

The station can't issue credit card refunds or travel voucher refunds, but the point made is that Kings Cross should IMO have offered to take in the refund and send it to the issueing station.

The issueing station (Charing Cross) then has the refund authorised by a local manager (depending on location and staff, this can take a couple of days). In the case of Credit Card refunds, it is then sent to a central processing place within the TOC for refund back onto the card. This is why it can take upto 28 days, although I would be suprised if you have to wait beyond 14!

I doubt you would be charged the admin fee, unless you didn't put in the 'reason' section that it was clerk error or tell the clerk you handed it to.

HHF

Thanks for this very useful explanation - much appreciated.

The clerk (who was the same one who issued the original tickets) completed the 'reason' section - having looked at my copy I see she didn't highlight her error but merely wrote "wrong date".....funny old thing that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd suggest putting your case to SE as to why you think you should be excempt from the admin fee rather than rushing off to the small claims court - you'd be more likely successful trying to persuade the train company to waive the fee in your case than you would be taking legal action, I think.

But of course, as myself and others have said here, you're quite unlikely to be charged any sort of admin fee anyway, so it's probably entirely irrelevant.

JD

You are, of course, perfectly correct and it was always my intention to give the company the opportunity to "do the right thing" with all relevant paperwork before resorting to more drastic methods.

 

[Railjet]

The original error may not have been yours but under the NRCOC your are required to check that the correct tickets have been issued

D. YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
21. Buying tickets As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold
you the ticket.

I always check the tickets issued to me at a booking office and am surprised that you didn't

Peter

Once again, TOCs trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities by passing the buck to the customer. It is not the customer's responsibility. It is common sense to check the ticket to avoid any problems, of course, but if the passenger has stated clearly his request, and the clerk has incorrectly issued a ticket, the responsibility lies squarely with the TOC. Consumer legislation is crystal clear on this, as it is for any other product or service.

 

[richw]

if they issue a admin fee, you are well within your rights to issue a reasonable admin fee to them as well, as it was there employees error, regardless of when you notice, that is a little known piece of information, a reasonable admin fee currently covers up to £10 per letter sent to them and received by you (your admin time reading their letter to you counts)

 

[Tom B]

Even if it was 'lost in the post' if the clerk and subsequent persons do their job correctly there will be a paper trail to follow and the refund can still happen. In any case the offer should have been made.

Unless, of course, it was "lost in the post" complete with inverted commas. Not that any of our delightful profiteering companies would do such a thing when they've got to pay out to a mere customer.