Badly laid out road junctions discussion.

[bramling]

i have frequently come across the old blank-40-NSL-blank sequence on the M62 as well. Particularly in light traffic. Its bad because it makes people take less notice of what they are being shown by the signs. If a speed limit is perceived as unreasonable, there is less chance of it being stuck to.

Had that on the M4 coming back from Wales recently. Very late at night, stepped down to 40 mph, left three lanes of four being marked as closed. Nothing going on, and after a mile or so of this the signs were then blank, so never passed a derestriction sign.

Extremely dangerous to be honest, and devalues confidence in the system, though of course Highways England already lacks both accountability and credibility.

Worse was something similar in Wales near Newport, this time a 20 mph speed limit associated with some roadworks. In this case the 20 mph was a good half mile or more before the works. Again completely unacceptable, as this is pretty dangerous on an empty motorway in the small hours. 20 mph on motorways seems to be a Wales speciality, as I've not seen this elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

20 can be put on manually (it can't go any lower than 50 automatically, or maybe 40, I forget), but I've only ever seen it once, on the on-ramp of the M1 north at Luton airport in very severe congestion. It would only be used in case of a very serious hazard or near-stationary traffic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2022 ==

Had that on the M4 coming back from Wales recently. Very late at night, stepped down to 40 mph, left three lanes of four being marked as closed. Nothing going on, and after a mile or so of this the signs were then blank, so never passed a derestriction sign.

I find blank signs an issue. While it would use more energy (not that much, it's LEDs) I think it's be really helpful to put NSL on all gantries unless restricted. It does cause issues when a faulty gantry is there in the middle of a line of 50s, say. You can't get done for it as the cameras record a fibre optic view of what's actually on the gantry rather than what should be, but it is still a pain because it causes dangerous conflict between those who think it means NSL and those who think it means "wait to see what the next one says".

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The A57(M) Mancunian Way in central Manchester has very close-spaced junctions, leading to dangerous conflicting moves across the slip roads and countless accidents. Proposals to remove some of the junctions led to howls of protest from the usual subjects - I'd demolish it and make it at grade. It is a dreadful 'Berlin Wall' from the city-centre to the south.

The M4/M5/A38 Almondsbury Interchange in Bristol is bad too, with conflicting moves across the slip roads on the Bristol side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The A57(M) Mancunian Way in central Manchester has very close-spaced junctions, leading to dangerous conflicting moves across the slip roads and countless accidents. Proposals to remove some of the junctions led to howls of protest from the usual subjects - I'd demolish it and make it at grade. It is a dreadful 'Berlin Wall' from the city-centre to the south.

It's got a trial 30 (which I suspect will become permanent) on it now to avoid those causing issues. 30 feels very slow on it which is plenty of time to deal with those hazards. 50 was a bit fast, I'm surprised it wasn't already 40.

As an aside when I did my test for driving the uni minibus just about the first thing the guy did was take me up there - evil! (I passed).

It couldn't really be done at grade because of how many things it crosses, but it could just be removed in favour of alternatives and I suspect it'll happen at some point (as Liverpool did with a similar flyover), but it would require major changes to the road layout round there to avoid the change causing chaos.

 

[PeterC]

It gets even worse south of the M25 which might be the most lawless road I've ever driven on. Cars doing 55mph in lane 2 (and sometimes 3!), idiots doing well over a ton. A hair-raising experience, first time.

In the evening I have sat in lane 1 of the M1 travelling north from J1 with cruise control on 65 and passed three cars before meeting somebody slower in my own lane

 

[341o2]

I'd nominate the A31 at Ringwood, hopefully roadworks will eliminate the issue of people turning off for Ellingham just after an exit from a filling station.
On the subject of roundabouts, many do not understand the correct signalling procedure, when going straight ahead ( on the usual crossroads format), signalling right until they take the second exit. But I never rely on someone indicating doing what they are supposedly going to do,
Other road layouts where there is a short length of dual carriageway before becoming single which encourages overtaking by getting alongside and forcing the other vehicle off the road

 

[Bald Rick]

My main gripe with smart motorways is that they're often blatantly used for extorting money out of motorists.

Exhibit A being the M6 south just after the M6 Toll branches off at J11A at about 10pm on Saturday night. The speed limit gantries read blank-40-NSL-blank without a single obstacle in sight and no congestion. The only possible explanation for this is to collect a few £100 fines off unsuspecting drivers (or even more if they're going fast enough). Of course, dodgy kit could explain this too, but the reluctance to rectify it will link back into revenue generation.

revenue generation for whom? Certainly not for National Highways or the police.

Unless you are suggesting that HM Treasury is instructing National Highways to put on spurious temporary speed limits to raise a few quid for the Consolidated Fund (the Government bank account where speeding fines go).

 

[AM9]

i have frequently come across the old blank-40-NSL-blank sequence on the M62 as well. Particularly in light traffic. Its bad because it makes people take less notice of what they are being shown by the signs. If a speed limit is perceived as unreasonable, there is less chance of it being stuck to.

A large section of the East Lancs road (A580) is 40mph in a section where is full dual carriageway, with armco barriered central reservation. The setting is rural as well Most people do 60-65 at least down there.

ANYWAY back to rubbish junctions, i find the M62-M1 junction particularly bad. If you are travelling west you can use either of 2 lanes on the roundabout to head north on the M1. Unfortunately people coming north on the M1 and going east on the M62 can use both lanes on the roundabout. There is a set of traffic lights where the eastbound M62 traffic joins.

This results in people in the outer (left hand) lane of the roundabout wanting to carry on round the junction, whilst those on the inside want to exit, both correctly obeying signposts and road markings. Chaos isnt far away normally.

The problem there would be that drivers don't take the rules in the highway code seriously. Rule 186 quite clearly says indicate the intention to exit when passing the exit before which means crossing onto the outside (leftmost) lane well before the actual exit. On the turn that you were describing, there is over 100m between passing the M62w exit and the stop line of the lights, then another 60m before the actual M1n exit. The problem there is the drivers who attempt to jump other traffic on the roundabout by still being in the right hand lane at the lights. Although there is not much of a reason for traffic to enter from M1s and exit to M1n, it is perfectly acceptable in roundabout rules (No.186), and encumbent on the right hand lane traffic to obey the rules for their part.
Besides the above, the roundabout at J42/29 isn't complex at all, - it's just a normal four entry/exit 2-lane roundabout, and also has a constant curve throughout.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The UK has several thousand miles of all purpose dual carriageways, in either D2 or D3 format without hard shoulders.

It does, and the fatality rate on those roads is higher than both normal motorways and smart motorways.

 

[A0]

It's currently being dug up (for the umpteenth time) but Junction 15 of the M1 has always been "special" if you've been coming off from the northbound M1. At the top of the slip road you needed to be in one of the two left hand lanes if you wanted the A45 East the right hand lane then filtered you over to Grange Park once you got over the motorway. No shortage of people getting that one wrong and cutting people up, including some years back a moron in a 3 series (why is it always BMW drivers) who decided to race somebody off the lights and the guy in the lane to the A45 didn't cede position (he had no obligation to) so the prick in the BMW collided with him.

 

[SargeNpton]

Signs like this don't help when you are trying to navigate a new roundabout for the first time. Situated on the central reservation, but as it's only to indicate the services it ought to be on the verge on the left.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the one just off the M1 at J14, isn't it? It's a mess.

I can confirm that Kelly's Kitchen Roundabout is wrongly marked for going towards the A4146, it annoyed me again last week!

 

[sk688]

I have found the Hunton Bridge roundabout , just north of Watford , particularly badly signed , especially for southbound A41 traffic coming from Kings Langley , looking to get onto the A411 Hempstead road. There's also an unnecessary (imv) filter lane that complicates things. The number of people I've seen in the wrong lane on that roundabout is far too high.

 

[nlogax]

Signs like this don't help when you are trying to navigate a new roundabout for the first time. Situated on the central reservation, but as it's only to indicate the services it ought to be on the verge on the left.

What an absolute travesty. Jock Kinneir would spin in his grave at the sight of that..I hope Margaret Calvert never gets to see it.

 

[AM9]

I have found the Hunton Bridge roundabout , just north of Watford , particularly badly signed , especially for southbound A41 traffic coming from Kings Langley , looking to get onto the A411 Hempstead road. There's also an unnecessary (imv) filter lane that complicates things. The number of people I've seen in the wrong lane on that roundabout is far too high.

OK when I've been on it:

The RH lane of the A41 is signed A411/M25 170m before entry and confirmed on road markings 30m before entry​

joining the multi-lane roundabout, straight ahead to the RH (inner lane on the roundabout) signed A411/M25​

60m later lane splits LH A411, RH M25​

70m further on, stop line for traffic lights, A411 lane's exit straight ahead, M25 lane continues around as outer (RH) lane​

I've always seen it as a pretty normal spiral roundabout.

 

[HSTEd]

I made the mistake of trying to go to Exeter Services from the M5, didn't go very well. Getting back onto the motorway was even worse.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I made the mistake of trying to go to Exeter Services from the M5, didn't go very well. Getting back onto the motorway was even worse.

There's a few awkward services that end of the M5. Cullompton when heading south/westbound is fun!