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Automated Vehicles Act 2024

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renegademaster

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Autopilot, even on fully supervised, will throw a strop and come to a safe stop if it doesn't think you are holding the wheel tight enough, so it's not as if it's allowing you to sit back and read a book , then suddenly expecting you be alert when you're about to run head first into a truck
 
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jon0844

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Autopilot, even on fully supervised, will throw a strop and come to a safe stop if it doesn't think you are holding the wheel tight enough, so it's not as if it's allowing you to sit back and read a book , then suddenly expecting you be alert when you're about to run head first into a truck

There appear to be about a billion ways to circumvent this though. You really do need to remain on high alert in environments where the technology simply doesn't work. The Waymo vehicles are flawed too, but at least have far better sensor equipment.

For me, most of my driving is in towns and cities where I can't imagine FSD ever being able to cope until we get roads that are segregated from all other road users (including errant pedestrians) and I can't see that happening anytime soon. I rarely use motorways these days (compared to years ago doing 20-30,000 miles a year on mostly motorways) which is where such systems are much more likely to cope - although when things do go wrong, it may well be life ending.
 

renegademaster

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For me, most of my driving is in towns and cities where I can't imagine FSD ever being able to cope
Theirs lots of videos of FSD drivers going round San Francisco with streets comparable to what you get in London, you forget it's a fairly dense and pedestrian and cycle focused city, not endless suburbia. Its currently only available in places that tesla have mapped out and approved to run, not expected to be allowed everywhere.
 

jon0844

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The concept of driving on mapped out streets is flawed and not how we'll get to level 5 autonomy. Road layouts can change. Roadworks, accidents, road damage and a billion other variables. A car can't just drive a predetermined route without being able to act like a human to react to all these different conditions.

I am not solely interested in videos of it working. I am concerned about the videos of it NOT working. Until there are almost or entirely zero incidents of it not working, it isn't working.
 

Mawkie

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For me, most of my driving is in towns and cities where I can't imagine FSD ever being able to cope until we get roads that are segregated from all other road users
My brother regularly sends me videos of him been driven by an entirely self driving Waymo taxi (that doesn't even have a support person sitting anywhere in the car.) He lives in Los Angeles, California. So it seems these vehicles have advanced to a level where they can work independently.
 

Towers

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Actual “self driving” cars being anything more than a tedious novelty will follow roughly about the same timeline as self driving trains - my kids and grandchildren can look forward to it maybe happening before their retirement!

On a serious note, far from there being a need to ‘free up’ all those hours of human labour spent driving vehicles for a living, driving employs a huge number of people and provides a mostly unskilled sector of the population with something approaching a reasonable, respectable living. Bottom shelf courier cowboys aside, employment as a bus, lorry or taxi driver for many folk who do it is a better proposition than a lot of the alternatives. There are always the cries of “they said that when the mills closed” etc, but in an age where the steady march is only ever closer to squeezing more humans out of the workplace, there really does need to be pause for thought about the pitfalls of mass autonomy. What will replace all these jobs? The warehouses and factories are all increasingly full of robots, the high street is in its death throes, and there are only so many branches of the Coop that need staffing… “Retraining is the answer” - but as what, and at whose expense?! We can’t all be hairdressers or social workers.

Only the blind could fail to notice that we already have a sizeable chunk of society who are utterly disenfranchised without meaningful employment or a sense of worth or purpose, and the outcome is not good. Recent mass rioting was a pretty decent red flag, in case anybody really hadn’t noticed. Taking away solid employment when there really is precious little in the way of quality alternative seems a deeply misguided path.
 

jon0844

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My brother regularly sends me videos of him been driven by an entirely self driving Waymo taxi (that doesn't even have a support person sitting anywhere in the car.) He lives in Los Angeles, California. So it seems these vehicles have advanced to a level where they can work independently.

I was referring to Tesla FSD. Waymo use more sensors, including Lidar.

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Actual “self driving” cars being anything more than a tedious novelty will follow roughly about the same timeline as self driving trains - my kids and grandchildren can look forward to it maybe happening before their retirement!

On a serious note, far from there being a need to ‘free up’ all those hours of human labour spent driving vehicles for a living, driving employs a huge number of people and provides a mostly unskilled sector of the population with something approaching a reasonable, respectable living. Bottom shelf courier cowboys aside, employment as a bus, lorry or taxi driver for many folk who do it is a better proposition than a lot of the alternatives. There are always the cries of “they said that when the mills closed” etc, but in an age where the steady march is only ever closer to squeezing more humans out of the workplace, there really does need to be pause for thought about the pitfalls of mass autonomy. What will replace all these jobs? The warehouses and factories are all increasingly full of robots, the high street is in its death throes, and there are only so many branches of the Coop that need staffing… “Retraining is the answer” - but as what, and at whose expense?! We can’t all be hairdressers or social workers.

Only the blind could fail to notice that we already have a sizeable chunk of society who are utterly disenfranchised without meaningful employment or a sense of worth or purpose, and the outcome is not good. Recent mass rioting was a pretty decent red flag, in case anybody really hadn’t noticed. Taking away solid employment when there really is precious little in the way of quality alternative seems a deeply misguided path.

I am all for tech that can aid driving, like lane keep assist (when it works properly, which a lot of systems don't), automatic braking and the more mundane stuff like adaptive cruise control. I can't see myself not wanting to drive anytime soon, and I think a human working with technology can become the safest overall solution - and likely will be what happens.

But car makers will keep developing the technology for as long as they can muster up venture capital and other investment. It must be quite lucrative.

On the flip side, you now have EVs coming that use software to make an automatic car perform like a manual car, simulating differing levels of acceleration and even rev limiters. I think it's more likely people will want to buy a car with that sort of technology (however gimmicky it seems) than self driving that could mess up and kill you.
 

renegademaster

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entirely zero incidents
Theirs not entirely zero human caused car crashes. If you can prove self driving is safer than human driving, but still keep them banned until they are perfect, you are accepting extra people dieing for the sake of luddism

same timeline as self driving trains
Numerous European metro systems have been self driving for a fair ammoumt of time, hardly a tedious novelty. London has had a fully self driving railway since the 80s and a number of tube lines are basically self driving.

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than self driving that could mess up and kill you.
Considering how popular Waymo is , I highly doubt your assertion is true
 

Mawkie

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That just seems far too complicated to be practical with privately owned cars. It needs really reliable positioning and very detailed mapping, very reliable communications, and a controlling computer on a giant scale (with large big brother implications).
The Vehicle to Everything (V2X) protocol is a mesh system, so communication is done in real time, from car to whatever is chatting back. Volvo have begun fitting it in Denmark and is happily warning other cars around it if a car finds some slippery road surface. Mercedes are fitting it to E and S Class and have a good write up here. They describe temporary traffic lights that can talk to your car to let you know when the red light will turn to green. And advance warning of an ambulance coming from around a corner. And the mesh network of cars randomly driving around a city that are also scanning empty road side parking spaces and reporting to anyone looking for a space that there is a space 2 roads away. I'm sure there are hundreds of other uses.

Of course there is a dream of long convoys of motorway vehicles travelling close togeher at speed, but I'm not sure we're there yet.

I'm not an expert; I just had a quick Google, but it seems to me that V2X is pivotal to fully autonomous vehicles - the EU designed the security protocols for it a decade ago, and the US has just funded a $60m development programme. So I guess it's coming.
 

jon0844

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Developing a mesh network such as the example above is the way forward. It will still take a lot of time and money, but is far more practical than the nonsense of getting people to drive around an area multiple times to teach one car maker the layout of roads and then expect to plan an auto driving system based on data that could change at any moment.

Tesla will ultimately fail unless it drastically alters its plans, and Elon isn't about to do that. Only last week they removed and deleted references to cars made after 2016 having the right hardware for robotaxis. Clearly it wasn't true and unless you want to see the Internet archives, Tesla will insist it never promised that at all.
 

Meerkat

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How often do you get a situation where you got enough time to plan to swerve into a car , and then swerve into it to avoid pedestrians , but didn't have enough time to stop short of them? That I've not actually seen any real life cases of automated cars using trolley dilemma logic makes me think its a bit of a red herring.
I’ve swerved up a verge and through a bush to avoid the back of a van once, and another time someone pulled out toward me and I had to swerve round into a kerb (which broke the suspension and left me careering into a grass bank). It doesn’t have to happen a lot - it’s the precedent set by one big court case and who they decide has to pay up. Lawyers are going to make a lot of money setting up the principles and then authorising the choices manufacturers/programmers make.

Another issue on British roads is how aggressively are they going to swerve round potholes!

I’m curious whether automated cars make slow traffic/ traffic jams longer - how many humans in them are actually using the recommended stopping distance……..

Theirs not entirely zero human caused car crashes. If you can prove self driving is safer than human driving, but still keep them banned until they are perfect, you are accepting extra people dieing for the sake of luddism
As i previously mentioned I think there is far less appetite for people being killed by robot’s choices than ‘human error’.

PS who else is getting pre-emptively grumpy that this new shiny future tech is going to get fast-tracked lax regulations whilst the railway continues to be strangled by disproportionate and ever increasing safety rules?
 

Bikeman78

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PS who else is getting pre-emptively grumpy that this new shiny future tech is going to get fast-tracked lax regulations whilst the railway continues to be strangled by disproportionate and ever increasing safety rules?
Look on the bright side. If these automated cars are so great, we can stop spending money upgrading level crossings because they will never try and jump the lights or barriers.
 

jon0844

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Look on the bright side. If these automated cars are so great, we can stop spending money upgrading level crossings because they will never try and jump the lights or barriers.

In a recent video, a Tesla owner in the USA nearly found its car trying to drive over a level crossing because - presumably - it couldn't see any obstruction and low sun meant it couldn't see the signals. A train passed quite soon after.
 

DC1989

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It's to 'driverless cars' detriment that Tesla is even mentioned when talking about them. They are not in the same galaxy as Waymo/Cruise
 

61653 HTAFC

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They describe temporary traffic lights that can talk to your car to let you know when the red light will turn to green.
That sounds great on paper, but if you think about it for a moment the implications are worrying. Temporary traffic lights are set up by roadworks crews countless times a day across the country, and are fairly simple. If there's a load of extra kit to allow the lights to communicate with autonomous vehicles, who will provide this kit? Who will train the crews on setting it up and who will pay for the training? How will these installations be monitored to ensure the lights are being placed and calibrated correctly, and that those installing them are qualified to do so?
 

renegademaster

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That sounds great on paper, but if you think about it for a moment the implications are worrying. Temporary traffic lights are set up by roadworks crews countless times a day across the country, and are fairly simple. If there's a load of extra kit to allow the lights to communicate with autonomous vehicles, who will provide this kit? Who will train the crews on setting it up and who will pay for the training? How will these installations be monitored to ensure the lights are being placed and calibrated correctly, and that those installing them are qualified to do so?
Why would their be much extra work for the crews? It would all be handled by the computer that controls it that requires minimal input to set up. What would calibration mean in this context, it would be a digital radio signalling protocol not an old television set
 

Crithylum

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That sounds great on paper, but if you think about it for a moment the implications are worrying. Temporary traffic lights are set up by roadworks crews countless times a day across the country, and are fairly simple. If there's a load of extra kit to allow the lights to communicate with autonomous vehicles, who will provide this kit? Who will train the crews on setting it up and who will pay for the training? How will these installations be monitored to ensure the lights are being placed and calibrated correctly, and that those installing them are qualified to do so?
I was cycling home one day, and as I approached a temporary light, it turned from green to red, then back to green very quickly after as I approached. I suspect it set both directions to red then allowed someone through when detected by the sensor. If programmed correctly at the factory I don't see how this is much more difficult to set up than a "dumb" light, given that the sensor was integrated into the traffic light face. It would be nice to see permanent lights this advanced.

I suspect an advantage of autonomous vehicles is that it won't accelerate any more than necessary to make a green light (using transmitted data), saving energy
 
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