Ashford to Margate - could the linespeed be improved?

[21C101]

After a breathless sprint to Ashford we then trundled at all of seventy miles an hour to Canterbury West.

It is approximately 20 minutes from Ashford to Canterbury and another thirty minutes to Margate so still an hour and a half from St Pan to Margate, which is all of about five minutes quicker than the fastest steam era service to Margate in 1950 (17.15 ex cannon street, arr 18.53) (reference http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=6&section_id=1765)

Is there any future likelyhood of an upgrade of this line to a 90/100 ruling linespeed to make the journey shorter?

I was also surprised that there was no on board refreshments, not even a trolley on what is by any standards a top link intercity service.

 

[user15681]

Line speed improvements from Ashford to Ramsgate certainly are an aspiration and Network Rail have said they're committed to it.

The line is 70mph as you say, except for three areas of permenant speed restrictions of 60mph at Chilham, 15mph around Canterbury West and 40mph around Grove Ferry. A feasibility study found that dealing with those 3 areas and upgrading the entire line to 85mph maximum would shorten Ashford to Ramsgate from 36 minutes to 26 minutes.

The Journey Time Improvement scheme for this upgrade is being funded by Network Rail, Kent County Council and the Regional Growth Fund. Last I heard, RGF will fund the upgrades from Ashford to Canterbury, whilst KCC and NR will fund the upgrades from Canterbury to Ramsgate.

The aspiration was for the upgrades to take place within CP5 (2014-2019) although it's not in Network Rail's CP5 plans, but I've not heard much about it recently. It is (was?) being driven alongside a Thanet Parkway station which would have served Manston Airport, which has now closed, although Thanet Parkway has received funding.

Hopefully someone can find a recent document with Network Rail confirming their current position on this and what stage the upgrades are at.
Sorry if that's too much from my memory rather than official documents.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Line speed improvements from Ashford to Ramsgate certainly are an aspiration and Network Rail have said they're committed to it.

The line is 70mph as you say, except for three areas of permenant speed restrictions of 60mph at Chilham, 15mph around Canterbury West and 40mph around Grove Ferry. A feasibility study found that dealing with those 3 areas and upgrading the entire line to 85mph maximum would shorten Ashford to Ramsgate from 36 minutes to 26 minutes.

The Journey Time Improvement scheme for this upgrade is being funded by Network Rail, Kent County Council and the Regional Growth Fund. Last I heard, RGF will fund the upgrades from Ashford to Canterbury, whilst KCC and NR will fund the upgrades from Canterbury to Ramsgate.

The aspiration was for the upgrades to take place within CP5 (2014-2019) although it's not in Network Rail's CP5 plans, but I've not heard much about it recently. It is (was?) being driven alongside a Thanet Parkway station which would have served Manston Airport, which has now closed, although Thanet Parkway has received funding.

Hopefully someone can find a recent document with Network Rail confirming their current position on this and what stage the upgrades are at.
Sorry if that's too much from my memory rather than official documents.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.

 

[21C101]

Line speed improvements from Ashford to Ramsgate certainly are an aspiration and Network Rail have said they're committed to it.

The line is 70mph as you say, except for three areas of permenant speed restrictions of 60mph at Chilham, 15mph around Canterbury West and 40mph around Grove Ferry. A feasibility study found that dealing with those 3 areas and upgrading the entire line to 85mph maximum would shorten Ashford to Ramsgate from 36 minutes to 26 minutes.

The Journey Time Improvement scheme for this upgrade is being funded by Network Rail, Kent County Council and the Regional Growth Fund. Last I heard, RGF will fund the upgrades from Ashford to Canterbury, whilst KCC and NR will fund the upgrades from Canterbury to Ramsgate.

The aspiration was for the upgrades to take place within CP5 (2014-2019) although it's not in Network Rail's CP5 plans, but I've not heard much about it recently. It is (was?) being driven alongside a Thanet Parkway station which would have served Manston Airport, which has now closed, although Thanet Parkway has received funding.

Hopefully someone can find a recent document with Network Rail confirming their current position on this and what stage the upgrades are at.
Sorry if that's too much from my memory rather than official documents.

Many thanks for that comprehensive update.

The impression I get is that it basically became a secondary route after the merger of the LC&DR and SER in 1899 and has now been thrust into the limelight again by having HS2 at Ashford.

The 15mph at Canterbury west is due to it originally having through lines and the platform roads still having the original sharp bends from the main line (as used to be the case on the Chiltern line). Was also surprised to see Canterbury West box surviving in all its glory. I thought the recent resignalling did for it.

It is quite incredible how intact both the LC&DR and SER networks are with most principal towns in Kent having either two stations serving different London Termini or two different routes to two different London Termini from the same station (three now for some with HS2) and even rural backwaters like Maidstone to Paddock wood surviving. I guess with it all being electrified in 1959 there was not much appetite to close them in the 1960s.

The biggest closure in Kent, Robertsbridge to Tenterden is slowly being reversed too.

If only Shoreham - Horsham and South Croydon to Horsted Keynes had also been elecrified in the 1950s as originally planned.

 

[Firesprite]

I believe that the Canterbury West box is listed.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

I suspect the 10s of level crossings along the route significantly limit the speed limit. Manned gates at Wye, farmers on user-worked crossings, footpath crossings all put the brakes on a 100mph railway.

Between through Wye and towards Ashford from Chilham, the alignment is pretty straight so there must be underlying issues preventing linespeed improvements. Power supply? Weak track bed?

 

[itsjamierawr]

I'd probably go with the many crossings and possibly weak track bed, that line floods easily. The signals along it also seem slightly older compared to the Chatham line that has LEDs on it now, could be it needs better signalling to allow a faster service?

 

[Philip C]

The biggest closure in Kent, Robertsbridge to Tenterden is slowly being reversed too.

The remaining section to be re-opened (from Junction Road at Udiam to Northbridge Street in Robertsbridge) is, of course, entirely in East Sussex. The prospects for reopening the section of the Kent & East Sussex Railway in Kent from Tenterden to Headcorn are very poor.

During the spate of landslips affecting the Tunbridge Wells - Hastings line earlier this year I had considerable difficulty in persuading Network Rail to adjust their web-site which listed these slips under the spurious heading of "Kent". Their argument was that because the line fell under their Kent Route organisation it was in order to pretend that it really was in Kent!

I am happy to live in East Sussex and would regard a move to the county of Kent as a step in the wrong direction!

 

[najaB]

I suspect the 10s of level crossings along the route significantly limit the speed limit. Manned gates at Wye, farmers on user-worked crossings, footpath crossings all put the brakes on a 100mph railway.

The manned gates and footpath crossings may be a limitation, but I'm pretty sure there are user-worked crossings on sections of the ECML that are 100mph.

 

[Tomnick]

The manned gates and footpath crossings may be a limitation, but I'm pretty sure there are user-worked crossings on sections of the ECML that are 100mph.

There are manned gates on 125mph sections of the ECML too, including Woodcroft on the section provided with flashing green signals for even higher speed operation.

 

[najaB]

There are manned gates on 125mph sections of the ECML too, including Woodcroft on the section provided with flashing green signals for even higher speed operation.

Thanks. I thought there were but wasn't sure. I was sure about the user worked crossings because I was once on a train that got delayed because the driver had to stop and go close a gate that a farmer left open.

 

[Tomnick]

I don't know whether there's a maximum speed as such for UWCs though - I'm pretty sure that they exist on lines with speeds in excess of 100mph. The requirement to caution for gates left open (the train driver usually being in the best position to put it right) is a separate issue, applying whether the linespeed's 125mph or 15mph - along with other issues such as failed telephones (today's theme), user failing to call back, unable to understand user and so on.