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Alledged Voyager ticket

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boing_uk

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Why? As Ferret has already said, barriers are ineffective (and he would know!)

Barriers, and a lack of on board staff, make it very easy for people who are running scams.

Barriers and staff are never going to be foolproof in preventing the hardened fraudster, but it IS likely to reduce somewhat the level of ticket evasion. I know for a fact that at Blackburn station it is possible to use just any old ticket and wave it at the staff and to be fair I can understand it to a certain extent when you have got 200 people piling through a small ramp.

Ticket barriers would certainly prevent the large scale of people getting on at Mill Hill and not paying to Blackburn and I can only imagine there are enough similar situations across the UK.

Gateline staff at Blackpool for instance are fairly good at spotting dodgy tickets (seen a few day tripping scrotes being held up there with bum tickets) and on the times when my own ticket hasnt gone through the machine, it is scrutinised quite closely.

As I said, barriers won't stop it all and with bad staff who dont care, it wont change a thing. But not all gateline staff are bad and not all fakers are that good.
 
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yorkie

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more onboard staff, i'll second that! Worth noting again the majoritty of current ones do a grand job!
At the risk of going off-topic...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-cut-in-the-great-train-shakeup-2274235.html

The government's review, led by Sir Roy McNulty (who has views that appear to be quite..... well it rhymes with his surname!), proposes getting rid of on board staff, and station staff. Oh, and raising fares. It doesn't take a genius to work out what the result will be, and a genius Sir Roy aint, on this evidence.

Yes, costs need to be reduced, but it's NR who are the largest cause of the high costs and it seems unfair to penalise passengers for that. The road network isn't cheap to maintain either, but that doesn't mean bus passengers should pay more or bus companies penalised.
Nutty report said:
Walk-on fares on peak services could be banned. Only those with season tickets or booked seats are able to travel on the very busiest services.
Ah, so you'll have a restriction on "Anytime" tickets on some routes, barring them from travel at certain times. So let's say they ban Peterborough-London Anytime tickets being used in the morning peak. Simply buy from a station where no restriction exists. There will be ways round it, it will cause more anomalies and more people will have to visit this forum to find ways round it.

I really wish someone would get this guy to, quite frankly, shut up! I wonder how much of our money he is being paid to come up with this gibber? Can we find out (FOI request)?
 

Blindtraveler

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Maybe this was a print-at-home ticket, but not in the official sense!

An interesting recent press release from the BTP about someone who produced fake season tickets worth £23,000. What's worrying is how many years it went unnoticed for, but this is automatic ticket gates-unfriendly Virgin Trains we're talking about, where the occasional manual barrier check can't read magnetic stripes to thwart such scams!

http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Medi...HOUSANDS-OF-POUNDS-FROM-THE-RAILWAY-1444.aspx


thats scary! Ok we have high fares, but never new foalk went to that kind a length!



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At the risk of going off-topic...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-cut-in-the-great-train-shakeup-2274235.html

The government's review, led by Sir Roy McNulty (who has views that appear to be quite..... well it rhymes with his surname!), proposes getting rid of on board staff, and station staff. Oh, and raising fares. It doesn't take a genius to work out what the result will be, and a genius Sir Roy aint, on this evidence.

Yes, costs need to be reduced, but it's NR who are the largest cause of the high costs and it seems unfair to penalise passengers for that. The road network isn't cheap to maintain either, but that doesn't mean bus passengers should pay more or bus companies penalised.

Ah, so you'll have a restriction on "Anytime" tickets on some routes, barring them from travel at certain times. So let's say they ban Peterborough-London Anytime tickets being used in the morning peak. Simply buy from a station where no restriction exists. There will be ways round it, it will cause more anomalies and more people will have to visit this forum to find ways round it.

I really wish someone would get this guy to, quite frankly, shut up! I wonder how much of our money he is being paid to come up with this gibber? Can we find out (FOI request)?


one word, Idiot! Stop interfearing where you aint wanted! Oh and I'll bet anyone a beer the last train he went on was a steam special somewhere!


 

CarterUSM

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Well, exactly. It may be possible to discuss this further at the London meal if you are able to attend. I can't really say anything more about that particular case. Unfortunately not all managers are knowledgeable, open minded, approachable, understandable and good at managing. Of course, they should be, but not all are. Of course, this is just one example, and for every bad manager there must be several good ones, I am sure! The same as in almost any position...

You've really hit the nail on the head there, a good manager, at any level, is worth their weight in gold. Bad managers make your job less enjoyable, and can make you less productive, professional and knowledgeable .
 

Ivo

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Just one little question; what is the definition of "17/04/11"? Did it actually say "17/04/11", or was the month written?
 

Ferret

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Why? As Ferret has already said, barriers are ineffective (and he would know!)

Barriers, and a lack of on board staff, make it very easy for people who are running scams.

The barriers at a well known station undergoing major refurbishment are a prime example! Some of the staff pay attention, scrutinise tickets and really do a good job. Other staff are seen nattering away to each other, not concentrating on the job at hand and will let anyone through, sometimes without even looking at what is being waved at them! I have jokingly suggested in messroom chats that I believe the Ace of Spades is valid as far as they're concerned. Only a few weeks ago, they'd let somebody through with a local bus ticket, who was duly relieved of 4 quid for a valid train ticket. Barriers are not the answer to everything - they can help, but full on train checks by staff that actually have the first clue what they are looking at remains the single most effective way to deal with revenue protection.
 

Anon Mouse

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Just one little question; what is the definition of "17/04/11"? Did it actually say "17/04/11", or was the month written?

It had been written by a Guard in ink across the middle, its how many of us grip tickets if we dont have a stamper. The thermal stamper marks had been rubbed out
 

185

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The correct procedure is to stop at Ulleskelf, preferably on the fast road, and see if it is still possible to kick the fare dodger from the doorstep to the island platform ten feet away.

No, wait.... :o
 

Daniel

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With regards to barriers, the massive problem is that the second the ticket comes near a magnet, it becomes unreadable. But an unreadable ticket is still deemed valid.

For example, if I am in a Zone 5 station in North London.
A customer has a weekly Zones 5+6, issued in South London.
The ticket is run through the gate upon exit, and presents error code 9, (unreadable).
I ask the customer where they have come from, they tell me the previous station.
I question that it was issued in South London.
The customer replies that he/she got a bus from Z5 South London to Z5 North London.

Because I have no way of disproving that, I can't do anything.

If a Z56 ticket is readable and is run through a gate in South London, then through one in North London, it will be rejected as the gates can see it has been through Z1234.
Where the tickets don't work, they have to be assumed as valid.

And because I work for London Underground, where gateline and ticket office staff cannot issue recipts or zero fares, I cannot withdraw any ticket which has a continued vadility, to complete an irregularity report. The only time I can withdraw a ticket is if I am confident enough that the ticket is fake that I'll risk a disciplinary for it. Note I said fake, if I know a ticket is being mis-used but is still a real ticket, I can do bugger all.
 

jon0844

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An interesting recent press release from the BTP about someone who produced fake season tickets worth £23,000. What's worrying is how many years it went unnoticed for

I've said before, and comments on here seem to support my experience, that if you fake an annual season/Gold Card, you'll never get it checked thoroughly. I've had mine looked at once in almost nine years - and only as a specific RPI was trying to make my life difficult!

But if you show a 'normal' Orange ticket, RPIs will have to check to verify a number of things. Wave a Gold Card and they seem to assume it must be fine (certainly restriction wise, they'll know you can use any train) so they don't look at more than the date. Hence, being able to show a ticket that doesn't even cover the route you're on, as I nearly always do simply because the rest is covered by an Oyster card.

So, if I was going to fake a ticket, I'd go for the kill and create a season. Get a genuine photo ID, make sure the number matches and job done.

Somehow, I'm sure a lot of other people do the same. Gatelines are going to be a problem (although I'd not even be surprised if some hacking forums haven't found a way of creating valid code using a magstrip programmer!) but I've never had a problem using the manual gate if I want - and you could just carry a bag or things in your hand to make it look like you can't use the gate.

Confidence is key and RPIs should be doing more random checks of tickets close-up.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Yesterday I checked a passengers ticket and he produced a well worn Super Saver Return from Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred with 'LACON' discount. The ticket was marked with the date 17/04/11 and had two rubbed out thermal stamps. The guy was travelling from York to Leeds and claimed that he had broke his journey at York and that his ticket was a Voyager ticket and perfectly valid. He said the LACON was the same price as a YP (he had a YP in his possesion).

Upon checking my machine, the YP fare was about £19 more expensive, and as far as I am aware there is no such thing as a Voyager ticket. Besides the validity code of the ticket states that if a overnight break of journey occurs the journey must be completed before 12.00 the following day.

I suspected fraud and the feel of the ticket felt like a dried peice of card that had spent the night outside!

As he insisted it was a 'Voyager' ticket I wonder what other people in a Guard or TI role make of it?

I've never heard of a 'Voyager' ticket I must be honest, and I'm not a guard or TI, but did the ticket actually say Super Saver Return (or it's abbreviation) on it as the ticket type?

Super Saver Returns went out with 'Simplification'. Also, to my knowledge, LACON is always a 50% discount, Y-P is 34% (excepting for minimum fare and Travelcards ofcourse).

A bit puzzled as to what LACON tickets would work from Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred led me to play about with Avantix for a bit. I got bored after a bit, but found Strathclyde Concession to work, but it it much more than the Y-P fare so cannot have been that; has anyone discovered what it is?....

LACON is just a discount code, without checking I can't say if it is possible to apply this to any ticket these days, but it was certainly possible in the days of Aptis.
 

Mojo

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LACON is just a discount code, without checking I can't say if it is possible to apply this to any ticket these days, but it was certainly possible in the days of Aptis.
I know that, but there are a large number of discounts which can be input which all return the discount code LACON as printed on the ticket. At least in Avantix you have to specify the correct discount else you get the error ''Railcard is not valid for journey,'' ''Railcard is not valid for destination'' or ''Railcard is not valid for origin.''

My Dad used to work for Aylesbury Vale District Council and received a 34% discount for a number of journeys in parts of Buckinghamshire (eg. Aylesbury to Wendover). You can get these to appear by entering in the discount field ''Aylesbury Vale'' (or ''AVC''), the tickets would then print with LACON. However if I try to request a discount from Aylesbury to London Terminals with AVC discount, it will be rejected. Buckinghamshire County Council employees have a more favourable arrangement, try Aylesbury to London Terminals with discount ''Bucks CC Discount'' which is accepted.

So I am presuming from this that in theory, the TIS at stations would also reject an inappropriate LACON discount. However the ''Strathclyde Schools'' discount seems to work in a lot of places; and offers quite a favourable discount! Let's pick a journey from (say) Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred. If I specify the AVC discount it (correctly) tells me it's not valid for the journey, however if I ask for the Strathclyde Schools discount it comes up with fares; and some quite considerable savings, SOR normally priced at £307 becomes £202 with 1625 Railcard and £76.75 with Strathclyde Schools![1]

Now here I don't know what this discount code is for; perhaps someone with local knowledge could say! I am making the assumption here that it should not be used for cross-country journeys! If that's correct then presumably therefore someone has managed to find a ticket office willing to issue such a ticket, who issued it on the grounds that their system would normally reject inappropriate discounts, but did not in this case. If I'm wrong and this discount card is available nationwide then please forgive me!

I also had the thought that such a ticket would come in child format only, and the price doesn't seem to differ when Adult & Child is selected in Avantix. Maybe someone with a TIS could try this little experiment for us and report back? If so, then I guess we need to find out the exact validity of this discount and report it to Atoc/RSP/whoever with some urgency as it's obviously open to misuse.

[1]However note the SSR prices which don't change!
 

CarterUSM

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I have never even heard of a Strathclyde schools discount! I cannot think when it would be applied either? School parties perhaps?
 

reb0118

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The times barriers would be really useful is when drunks are travelling late at night, as they could be denied entry to the railway quite easily (byelaw offence to be drunk on the railway), yet they are left open at those times!:roll:

Well said. I also find it odd that the barriers have fixed hours are not dovetailed into the actual traintimes. As a guard my hours can change to accomodate any time table change - why not other staff?

Why do the barriers close down (or should it be open?) at 22:55 when the last train leaves at 23:05? Common sense? I don't think so!
 

brompton rail

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I have never even heard of a Strathclyde schools discount! I cannot think when it would be applied either? School parties perhaps?

Strathclyde don't run schools anyway!

Indeed the name is used only for Police, Fire and Rescue and SPT (Strathclyde Partnership for Transport)
 
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CarterUSM

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Strathclyde don't run schools anyway!

Indeed the name is used only for Police, Fire and Rescue and SPT (Strathclyde Partnership for Transport)



Yes, it has been a long time since they did! Maybe it is a historical discount of sorts. I have certainly never been briefed on it, nor can I find any info on it in publications.
 

Daniel

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Why do the barriers close down (or should it be open?) at 22:55 when the last train leaves at 23:05? Common sense? I don't think so!


I'd assume that NR are similar to LU, in that our barriers can only be closed when there is a member of staff manning them. If there is no staff member, the gatelines have to be open. If there is no staff member at 1300, they'll be open. If there is a staff member at 0100, they'll be closed.

I don't think they "close down"/"open up" themselves, it may be in the instance you're thinking of the staff member finished at 22:55..
 

reb0118

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I don't think they "close down"/"open up" themselves, it may be in the instance you're thinking of the staff member finished at 22:55..

Correct. The staff member (single man working - which is another issue) finishes at 23:00 so has to leave the gateline at 22:55.

Revenue barriers are closed when they are open & open when they are closed if you get my drift :D
 

Daniel

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(single man working - which is another issue)

Indeed it is another issue, so much so that after I was last assaulted on the gateline the British Transport Police told me to no longer protect revenue on the gateline, and focus on customer service, which my management support. As such I have no real support when protecting revenue.


Revenue barriers are closed when they are open & open when they are closed if you get my drift :D

Yes, it's confusing really, isn't it? lol
 

Jonny

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A bit puzzled as to what LACON tickets would work from Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred led me to play about with Avantix for a bit. I got bored after a bit, but found Strathclyde Concession to work, but it it much more than the Y-P fare so cannot have been that; has anyone discovered what it is?

Maybe it could have even been a fake ticket; but if you're in the business of running a fake ticket factory why would you choose to produce something so battered, surely you'd want to produce something which looks in pristine condition? But maybe that's why I'm not a fraudster!

I seem to remember something about fake fivers ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1921123.stm ); apparently there were a load in circulation and they were able to carry on for so long! It seems that fraudsters prefer tatty documents to steer "under the radar" with a low value item.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe this was a print-at-home ticket, but not in the official sense!

An interesting recent press release from the BTP about someone who produced fake season tickets worth £23,000. What's worrying is how many years it went unnoticed for, but this is automatic ticket gates-unfriendly Virgin Trains we're talking about, where the occasional manual barrier check can't read magnetic stripes to thwart such scams!

http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Medi...HOUSANDS-OF-POUNDS-FROM-THE-RAILWAY-1444.aspx

The trouble is that the magnetic stripe then becomes a target for the fraudsters - it's pretty hard to make but if you have the appropriate hardware it gets a lot easier. Also, another poster has made a point about magnetic stripes being vulnerable to being wiped, which is an additional possible complication even on a valid ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Strathclyde don't run schools anyway!

Indeed the name is used only for Police, Fire and Rescue and SPT (Strathclyde Partnership for Transport)

Could it be for schools in the SPT area?
 

jon0844

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I can see why it's easier to fake a fiver as nobody checks them. Shops probably don't even check, and concentrate on £10, £20 and always a £50.

But, for a train ticket, I really do think the opposite applies. An ALR is maybe pushing it, but a season has few (if any) restrictions and can be checked quicker than a ticket that may be off-peak, YPRC (where's the railcard) etc.

And I am sure you could obtain paper with a magstrip, or just ensure it can't be read and go to seek assistance. If you saw the same staff every day, that's when it might become tricky if one of them tells you to get the ticket changed.
 

Paul Kelly

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According to the data files with Avantix Traveller, Strathclyde Schools (discount code SSD) is available to discount between 1 and 80 tickets at a time. These can be any combination of adults and children, indeed the discount can even be applied if there are no children present. The discount is not geographically restricted and can be used between any pair of stations. For both adult and child tickets it offers a 75% discount on the full adult fare. This is valid for both standard and first class anytime tickets and most day singles and day returns, but not on period returns or off-peak singles etc. - it is still valid to purchase these but they have a zero discount - even child tickets are charged at the full adult price when specifying an SSD discount.

A railcard/discount can be marked in the database as geographically restricted, and then it can only be used between stations that both have it listed as a valid railcard at that location. So it looks like no one has bothered doing this for the Strathclyde Schools. Other similar ones are implemented in a broken way, e.g. Kent Scholar Card (KSC) or Kent Scholar Junior (KSJ) both have the stations at which they are valid defined in the database, but they are not marked as geographically-restricted so can still be used between any two stations. KSC is only valid for adult fares and gives a 17% discount on season tickets and zero discount on everything else; KSJ is only valid for child fares and gives a 58% discount (off the full adult fare) on season tickets and again zero (off the full adult fare) on everything else.
 

Magicake

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I think those KSC and KSJ tickets are purchased by kent county council and issued to schoolchildren as part of their committment to provide free travel to and from school - think I used to have one!
 

OMGitsDAVE

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Maybe this was a print-at-home ticket, but not in the official sense!

An interesting recent press release from the BTP about someone who produced fake season tickets worth £23,000. What's worrying is how many years it went unnoticed for, but this is automatic ticket gates-unfriendly Virgin Trains we're talking about, where the occasional manual barrier check can't read magnetic stripes to thwart such scams!

http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Medi...HOUSANDS-OF-POUNDS-FROM-THE-RAILWAY-1444.aspx

Reckon thats a fake?
It says 'Custoday' instead of 'Custody' :lol:
 
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