Advice on second letter from TIL.

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm seeking help from forum members for a young acquaintance who is facing the possible of a court summons for 'travel on a train without a valid ticket' contrary (to) S.5.3a Regulation of Railways Act (1889)
When I was first asked to help,I used my scant knowledge of this area by reading many of the helpful posts from forum members in this section, and drafted a letter which was sent to TIL utilising the suggestions previously posted...ie sticking to the plain facts, offering sincere apologies and offering to settle the matter by paying the penalty due and administrative costs. I'm sure that I do not need to add that the contrition is geniune.
I expected that this would either be accepted or rejected, but I've now been shown a letter which re-states the original possibliity of a summons as 'the Rail Company sees no reason why this matter should not proceed as previously advised' and that 'an application for the issue of a summons may now be made', and then asking for any more comments within 14 days.
I'm not sure what else I can do, apart from suggesting that she apologises again and offers to pay any sum that they might suggest.
Regarding the incident itself (I know that it is serious) she boarded a train at Stapleton Road, didn't buy a ticket (there isn't an ATM), had a short time to then catch a train to Cardiff at Bristol TM. On arrival at Cardiff, she went to the unpaid fares desk and said that she had come from Newport. The chap behind the desk spoke to an Inspector who asked her the question again and, realising her stupidity, she immediately stated her true station of origin. Then followed the usual procedure.
I'd be grateful if anyone can offer advice on where to go with this. I would like to help further if I can. Oh. and this is a first offence.

 

[TheEdge]

Sounds like the TOC (ATW?) are fairly confident that a prosecution can go ahead and have refused a settlement. Especially given the difference between Newport to Cardiff and the other side of Bristol to Cardiff.

Is there much else that can be done?

 

[Clip]

Its a bang to rights case really so the only thing I would say is to once again offer to settle this outside of court but be aware that given the distance involved here - it doesnt look a short hop - I would fully expect them to make an example of your friend in the courts. Good bit of PR and all that.

 

[Flamingo]

It's possible that the Guard did not go through between Bristol and Cardiff, but unless it was a busy peak-time train this is unlikely.

I would have my doubts whether it is a first offence - probably the first time it didn't work.

Sounds like an open and shut case.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's possible that the Guard did not go through between Bristol and Cardiff, but unless it was a busy peak-time train this is unlikely.

I'm not quite sure it is as unlikely as you may think.

I often travel from between Bristol and Cardiff (from an unmanned station east of Bristol, to an unmanned station north of Cardiff).
I would say on the majority of my journeys (so more than half) there is no ticket check between Bristol and Cardiff. This has meant in the past that I have ended up in the strange situation of passing through two large stations without having any opportunity to buy a ticket (as delays, which are not uncommon for my journey, can leave you with no time to buy one at Bristol or Cardiff).

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not quite sure it is as unlikely as you may think.

I often travel from between Bristol and Cardiff (from an unmanned station east of Bristol, to an unmanned station north of Cardiff).
I would say on the majority of my journeys (so more than half) there is no ticket check between Bristol and Cardiff. This has meant in the past that I have ended up in the strange situation of passing through two large stations without having any opportunity to buy a ticket (as delays, which are not uncommon for my journey, can leave you with no time to buy one at Bristol or Cardiff).

All of which is immaterial. According to the OP at Cardiff the friend said they boarded at Newport;

Newport - Cardiff = SDS: £4.80, SDR: £5.40, CDR: £5.10
Stapleton Road - Cardiff = SDS: £15.30, SDR: £17.10, CDR: £12.20

Do we see why the TOC is pretty happy to take this one on. Especially given the friend admitted to "accidentally" giving the wrong origin...

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

All of which is immaterial. According to the OP at Cardiff the friend said they boarded at Newport;

Newport - Cardiff = SDS: £4.80, SDR: £5.40, CDR: £5.10
Stapleton Road - Cardiff = SDS: £15.30, SDR: £17.10, CDR: £12.20

Do we see why the TOC is pretty happy to take this one on. Especially given the friend admitted to "accidentally" giving the wrong origin...

Thanks for the replies....I don't think, however, that she 'accidentally' gave the wrong origin, in that split second in response to the question she thought that she might be able to save a tenner (a lot of money when you haven't any) and therefore told a deliberate lie, she might have regretted it instantly, but to me, at any rate, it wasn't accidental.

Of course, if there had been a ticket check between Bristol and Cardiff she wouldn't have had the opportunity (not making excuses here or blaming others), this begs the question -from me -about ticket checks in general. Sometimes when I travel the Guard is constantly going through the train (esp ATW), on other occasions ticket checks are rare. Is this down to the individual, or perhaps not necessary on journeys where stations have barriers? I also find that on evening/late night trains (even ATW) it is rare to have a ticket check. Just general comments.
Well, it looks as if she will get a hefty fine.

 

[Flamingo]

When joining a train in the course of a journey, if the guard has been through once already and has already done an "All tickets" check, if the guard does a shout-over it can be relatively easy to avoid them, either by acting as if this couldn't possibly apply to you, or a convenient full bladder.

An all-tickets check, of course, can be more difficult to avoid, but if done twice is usually accompanied by moans of "I already showed it to you".

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

When joining a train in the course of a journey, if the guard has been through once already and has already done an "All tickets" check, if the guard does a shout-over it can be relatively easy to avoid them, either by acting as if this couldn't possibly apply to you, or a convenient full bladder.

An all-tickets check, of course, can be more difficult to avoid, but if done twice is usually accompanied by moans of "I already showed it to you".

Ah....Thank you for that explanation!

 

[Clip]

Out of interest how does one fail to give the origin of their destination when they go to purchase a ticket?

Had they done one of these usual things recently:-

1) Moved home- which they tell everyone concerned their address from utilities to their friends

2) Was poorly and forgot where they lived?

3) Was under an inordinate amount of stress at work which made them think they lived in another town?

4) Were intentionally trying to get a cheaper fare because it had worked before so they saved a few quid?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Out of interest how does one fail to give the origin of their destination when they go to purchase a ticket?

Had they done one of these usual things recently:-

1) Moved home- which they tell everyone concerned their address from utilities to their friends

2) Was poorly and forgot where they lived?

3) Was under an inordinate amount of stress at work which made them think they lived in another town?

4) Were intentionally trying to get a cheaper fare because it had worked before so they saved a few quid?

I think it's no. 4! As I said previously, no-one can forget where they boarded a train, but individuals may well have different reasons why they try to save a few quid. Don't believe that it is 'accidental'.

 

[Clip]

I never do.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I never do.

sorry - I should have written 'I' (don't believe this is accidental.) in my previous post.

 

[reb0118]

.......no-one can forget where they boarded a train.......

Going a wee bit off topic:-

Yes they can! Many people board at the park & ride at Newcraighall forget where they originated from - and in the main they do have valid tickets.

It is also common for passengers originating at Dalmeny after disembarking from one of the frequent cruise liners that berth at Queensferry to forget the name of the station that they boarded at - even to the point of going right past it on their return. Again the majority hold valid tickets.

The difference with the above and the OP's vicarious scenario is that we are dealing with tourists not 100% sure of the locality not locals potentially trying it on.

 

[anme]

In their enthusiasm to condemn the OP's friend, some members seem to have forgotten to read her/his posts. As far as I can see, it was never stated that this was accidental. In fact, post 7 explicitly says that the OP does not believe it was accidental. Now that's clear, maybe we can actually try to help?

 

[warriorofrovac]

In their enthusiasm to condemn the OP's friend, some members seem to have forgotten to read her/his posts. As far as I can see, it was never stated that this was accidental. In fact, post 7 explicitly says that the OP does not believe it was accidental. Now that's clear, maybe we can actually try to help?

If they have already tried appealing to ATW and they've essentially refused, it looks like they will still attempt to prosecute. Seems an open and shut case unfortunately.