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The advice usually given on here is that when you have paid the Penalty Fare, as you say you have done - that closes the matter and that is the end of it.
However, if they stop you again with the wrong ticket (even if just an honest mistake) they may be much less willing to issue the Penalty Fare option again as they may decide you are habitually trying to avoid fares. Also the profile of many fare evaders includes young people quite a bit I think (rightly or wrongly and there are plenty of people not young who evade fares too) so best not to let them jump to that conclusion if they did stop you again.
So basically if you are unsure about if the ticket you have is valid or not in anyway - go to the station ticket office and check with a a member of staff before you get on the train. They will be fine with you asking a question like that.
£3.40 midweek on the 0957 (Off Peak Day Return fare, which is normally only valid outward at or after 0930) or £5.00 (Anytime Day Return fare) if travelling midweek beforehand, such as on the 0927.
Or there's the £3.30 Anytime Day Single fare if travelling one-way.
I always scan tickets with people doing this- some genuinely unaware, others deliberate.
You'll notice on the booking apps that the railcard discount fare only shows for the first departure after 10am (plus the ones after that) - there is no cheaper fare before this time because its not valid at that time. I usually explain this then tell people to book the ticket for the time they actually intend to travel to ensure they pay the right fare - there is a reason for the more expensive fares for earlier trains!
Hopefully you understand the reasons now, its something I come across a lot and does genuinely confuse a lot of people.
As Watershed says, you should appeal again on the grounds he gave as long as you're still within the time limit. If you win you'll get back the penalty element of the fare you already paid. (But they may keep the double payment of the fare, which is so small it's not worth pursuing.) Don't say anything about previous occasions, but the same considerations would have applied (and they are free to pursue those if you made admissions or electronic timestamps indicate an issue regardless of the appeal). Throw in the signage issue as there's nothing to lose by mentioning it (and it offers them a convenient way out).
The now-defunct SRA explained the reasoning back in 2002 as follows, pointing out that as Penalty Fares can only be issued where it is safe to assume deliberate fare evasion, they can't be issued in situations such as these:
4.29 When a penalty fare cannot be charged. The instructions must make clear to authorised collectors when they can charge a penalty fare and when they can’t. In particular, the instructions must remind authorised collectors of situations where passengers are not liable to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules, for example in circumstances where the National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare. The instructions must cover the following instances.
...
Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes. If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold. Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
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If you want the train company to be statute bared from prosecuting you then you could submit an appeal but expect it to be rejected.
I am actually wondering if the correct course of action here would have been to excess your ticket up to the undiscounted fare rather than issuing a penalty fare.
I think given you have done this many times before I personally would pay the penalty fare before it's increases. The last thing we wanted for the train company to start looking at your purchase history and realise you have got away with this many times before. If you pay the penalty fare now then that should be the end of the matter provided you travel correctly with a ticket next time.
I usually explain this then tell people to book the ticket for the time they actually intend to travel to ensure they pay the right fare - there is a reason for the more expensive fares for earlier trains!
There is, but most of us are used to having to deal with bad programming and if you see a ticket at 10:30 that specifically says it has no time restrictions then I think it's not entirely unreasonable to think that it's a bug that the same price isn't showing for the 9:30, and also to believe that if you buy a ticket described as without time restrictions then it doesn't matter which service you use.
(Especially if you had the bad luck to start using the railcard in July or August as that is a really obscure rule).
And I've seen elsewhere that the Traineline App seems reluctant to sell walk-up tickets when the advances run out and the work-around is to buy a ticket for a later service rather than the one you intend to catch...
Yes I know anyone buying a railcard should have memorised all the terms and conditions and no doubt if you click for information on the ticket somewhere there is a line saying that railcard time restrictions may apply, but...
There is, but most of us are used to having to deal with bad programming and if you see a ticket at 10:30 that specifically says it has no time restrictions then I think it's not entirely unreasonable to think that it's a bug that the same price isn't showing for the 9:30, and also to believe that if you buy a ticket described as without time restrictions then it doesn't matter which service you use.
(Especially if you had the bad luck to start using the railcard in July or August as that is a really obscure rule).
And I've seen elsewhere that the Traineline App seems reluctant to sell walk-up tickets when the advances run out and the work-around is to buy a ticket for a later service rather than the one you intend to catch...
Yes I know anyone buying a railcard should have memorised all the terms and conditions and no doubt if you click for information on the ticket somewhere there is a line saying that railcard time restrictions may apply, but...
I don't think a Penalty Fare in this instance was correct, I'd suggest that this comes under a time restricted ticket, that ticket being (in)validated by the railcard restriction.
If the inspector knew that a later train was selected to circumnavigate the minimum fare then they should have completed an MG11 and possibly investigated previous bookings, but thats irrelevant as they decided to go with the Penalty Fare.
I'm assuming its West Midlands Railway?
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There is, but most of us are used to having to deal with bad programming and if you see a ticket at 10:30 that specifically says it has no time restrictions then I think it's not entirely unreasonable to think that it's a bug that the same price isn't showing for the 9:30, and also to believe that if you buy a ticket described as without time restrictions then it doesn't matter which service you use.
(Especially if you had the bad luck to start using the railcard in July or August as that is a really obscure rule).
And I've seen elsewhere that the Traineline App seems reluctant to sell walk-up tickets when the advances run out and the work-around is to buy a ticket for a later service rather than the one you intend to catch...
Yes I know anyone buying a railcard should have memorised all the terms and conditions and no doubt if you click for information on the ticket somewhere there is a line saying that railcard time restrictions may apply, but...
I'd say the 10:00 minimum fare is quite prominent and I'd say nearly every person that I've spoken to circumnavigating the time restrictions in a professional capacity was aware of what they were doing. I'm not suggesting that this is the case here, just speaking from experience.
On the 16-25 railcard web site, it is mentioned clearly on the front page under "Eligability and terms of use":
- Buy a Railcard and keep it with you when you travel (on your phone or wallet)
- Save on most tickets including Advance tickets
- £12 minimum fare applies on morning peak.
BUT - this is below some pretty pictures and examples of prices for trips to Universities and what you'd save, then some special offers that have nothing to do with rail travel, then a faintly patronising description of how using a railcard works. You have to scroll down quite a long way to get to it.
If you just read "Get 1/3 off train travel with a 16-25 Railcard" and the bar underneath restating the 1/3 saving but not mentioning any restrictions at the top of the page and then click "Buy Now" then you would miss it.
Continuing with the process there is of course the box to tick to say you've read the terms and conditions. I continued with the purchase process as far as having to type in a passport number and gave up, without having seen the minimum fare mentioned at all apart from buried in the terms and conditions.
Now maybe later on, or when the card is issued, you get a big promiment warning. I wouldn't know. But up to that point I would not say that anyone had gone out of their way to make the minimum fare obvious.
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Furthermore, as previously mentioned, a Penalty Fare cannot be issued merely for a ticket that is invalid due to a time restriction. An excess is the correct outcome for that situation, as stated in condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
Didn't the OP purchase an Off Peak Day Return ticket (normally only ever valid midweek from Dudley Port at or after 0930) and then use it on the 0927? Could this have been excessed to an Anytime Day Return if the OP hadn't claimed 16-25 railcard discount?
I don't think that argument carries any weight. Ultimately the issue at hand is that the ticket isn't valid, and the only reason it isn't valid is because of a time restriction. It would be valid after 10am, after all.
However, in this case, with the OP using an Off-Peak Day Return before that's even valid, and they have done so on multiple occasions, I agree that care needs to be taken to avoid a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act.
