Advice needed please

[jpar]

Never thought I would be writing a post like this but am at my wits end and being the dad who always tries to fix things I have no idea how to handle this.

My daughter was caught last year short ticketing and using the wrong railcard on a local SWR trip. The prosecutor has written to her for reasons behind the incident.
Instead of asking me for help, she replied back to the email with her apologies and reasons why she did it and offered to pay the fine/full ticket price. She mentioned in the email that it was a one off. The prosecutor then replied back with examples of a no. of other trips where she had done similar and wanted reasons for each of them.

At this point she called me and her mum to confess what she had done and asked for our help. My main goal is to stop a young girl who has made a number of dumb mistakes just to save a few quid, getting a life changing criminal record. She knows she has done wrong and she will be paying out of her savings all of the costs to make the train company good and I know she won't do anything like this again.

What is not clear to me, when she is happy to admit guilt, is whether the train company will want to prosecute to really punish her versus just getting the money she should have paid them in the first place through a settlement. With the information above do you think I need to involve a solicitor to help or does she just reply back to the second email directly apologising, being contritie and offering to pay all the monies that they are owed? They asking for information about each and every journey which I don't understand why when the law says you are guilty even if you didn't mean to fare evade.

Any advice would be greatly and humbly received.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Never thought I would be writing a post like this but am at my wits end and being the dad who always tries to fix things I have no idea how to handle this.

My daughter was caught last year short ticketing and using the wrong railcard on a local SWR trip. The prosecutor has written to her for reasons behind the incident.
Instead of asking me for help, she replied back to the email with her apologies and reasons why she did it and offered to pay the fine/full ticket price. She mentioned in the email that it was a one off. The prosecutor then replied back with examples of a no. of other trips where she had done similar and wanted reasons for each of them.

At this point she called me and her mum to confess what she had done and asked for our help. My main goal is to stop a young girl who has made a number of dumb mistakes just to save a few quid, getting a life changing criminal record. She knows she has done wrong and she will be paying out of her savings all of the costs to make the train company good and I know she won't do anything like this again.

What is not clear to me, when she is happy to admit guilt, is whether the train company will want to prosecute to really punish her versus just getting the money she should have paid them in the first place through a settlement. With the information above do you think I need to involve a solicitor to help or does she just reply back to the second email directly apologising, being contritie and offering to pay all the monies that they are owed? They asking for information about each and every journey which I don't understand why when the law says you are guilty even if you didn't mean to fare evade.

Any advice would be greatly and humbly received.

Welcome to the forum

A few things that might hep us to give advice

- is your daughter younger or older than 18? Train companies often treat juveniles in a different way from adults.
- which train company was involved? Different companies take different approaches
- has your daughter replied to everything that the railway has sent? People who don't keep in touch and hope the problem will go away find out the hard way that the railway will progress matters to court if they don't get co-operation
- has she received anything headed something like 'Single Justice Procedure Notice' or a summons from the court? Note that these are different from anything headed 'Notice of intended prosecution'. This is about which stage the process is at: what your daughter can do may vary depending on how far along matters are.

But there are a couple of things that I can say on the basis of what you have already given us:

- the railway's main interest in cases like this is to make sure that the passenger will not fare dodge again. A close second to this is getting the fare that they should have been paid. But the practical upshot is that if an out of court settlement will have these effects, then normally the railway is happy not to go to court - and no court means no criminal record.
- but if the matter does go to court, and by the sounds of things your daughter would either plead guilty or be found guilty, then she would have a criminal record. While obviously it's better not to have a criminal record than to have one, in practice it isn't always disastrous. For many jobs and professions, you may need to declare a criminal record for a limited period of time - but for many of them the important thing is to mention it. From what I have seen, a conviction for fare dodging is unlikely to stop you working as a teacher or a nurse: but it may be a barrier for someone wanting to be a lawyer, an accountant or to work in finance. So the important thing to bear in mind is that even if the worst happens, the worst may not be all that dreadful.

 

[jpar]

Thank you s

Welcome to the forum

A few things that might hep us to give advice

- is your daughter younger or older than 18? Train companies often treat juveniles in a different way from adults.
- which train company was involved? Different companies take different approaches
- has your daughter replied to everything that the railway has sent? People who don't keep in touch and hope the problem will go away find out the hard way that the railway will progress matters to court if they don't get co-operation
- has she received anything headed something like 'Single Justice Procedure Notice' or a summons from the court? Note that these are different from anything headed 'Notice of intended prosecution'. This is about which stage the process is at: what your daughter can do may vary depending on how far along matters are.

But there are a couple of things that I can say on the basis of what you have already given us:

- the railway's main interest in cases like this is to make sure that the passenger will not fare dodge again. A close second to this is getting the fare that they should have been paid. But the practical upshot is that if an out of court settlement will have these effects, then normally the railway is happy not to go to court - and no court means no criminal record.
- but if the matter does go to court, and by the sounds of things your daughter would either plead guilty or be found guilty, then she would have a criminal record. While obviously it's better not to have a criminal record than to have one, in practice it isn't always disastrous. For many jobs and professions, you may need to declare a criminal record for a limited period of time - but for many of them the important thing is to mention it. From what I have seen, a conviction for fare dodging is unlikely to stop you working as a teacher or a nurse: but it may be a barrier for someone wanting to be a lawyer, an accountant or to work in finance. So the important thing to bear in mind is that even if the worst happens, the worst may not be all that dreadful.

Thank you so much for your Swift reply.

She is 19 (she was 18 at the time of some of the offences)
The train company is SWR
She replied to the first email from their team within 2 days of receiving it last week. She has not replied to the 2nd one yet which she got yesterday as thats when she told me about it.
The email subject just contains a reference number and the email was asking for info. about her and about the background of the journey she was caught doing. The subsequent email is asking about the other journies they have now found she did which also are suspicious to them.

 

[z444z]

SWR are generally happy to settle. What she needs to do now is go through the list of journeys, check that that they aren’t charging for journeys she didn’t make or that she made with valid tickets, and then apologise again and ask to settle out of court, offering to pay the fares due as well as their administrative costs.

We can help get the response as good as possible, so post a draft here for us to review before sending anything.

Could you firstly upload copies of all correspondence that’s happened so far (with personal details redacted)?

 

[jpar]

Thank you @z444z and @Fawkes Cat. I will try and redact the email received and turn into something I can post here and then draft a reply for you to consider.
Are you of the opinion that a solicitor is not needed in this case eventhough they have evidence of 9 instances on top of the one they caught her for and that she lied in her initial reply to them which they caught her out on?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you s

Thank you so much for your Swift reply.

She is 19 (she was 18 at the time of some of the offences)
The train company is SWR
She replied to the first email from their team within 2 days of receiving it last week. She has not replied to the 2nd one yet which she got yesterday as thats when she told me about it.
The email subject just contains a reference number and the email was asking for info. about her and about the background of the journey she was caught doing. The subsequent email is asking about the other journies they have now found she did which also are suspicious to them.

Yes, I think best thing before replying to the most recent e-mail is to upload the original message, her reply and the recent message as requested (but remove any details that could identify her and ref numbers etc), as that will help people suggest the best way to respond to the most recent request from SWR

They obviously found out her lie about first time doing it (digital fingerprints for this stuff is easy for them to find) - so I suspect her next reply needs to accept that and apologise she did not reply originally in the way she should have done (getting the wording for this as good as it can be is a key thing here) - but basically get grovelling for an out of court settlement by making it clear she is happy to pay all the fares owed and their admin costs for looking into this - which of course are now a bit higher due to them having to call her out on what she originally said....

Has she got the correct Railcard she could have? (I suspect she was buying tickets with a 16-17 saver railcard to get 50% discount that she is not entitled to) - if she's not got a 16-25 Railcard buy one now and see the cost as an investment in helping avoid prosecution because she can cite it as an example of how she has 'learned from this and changed her ways' - and use it legitimately going forwards.

She could maybe call her actions 'a serious error of judgment' for example

Then when that draft is ready you are she can post it here for people to help get the wording as good as it can be (send her the link to this thread if you think that might help)

Does she reckon the fares they have identified that she evaded are in fact a correct or broadly correct? If so best not to debate it with them I suspect - but if they are badly wrong then we can advise on how best to approach that aspect.

Finally she is part way through the process below - but this general advice often posted on the forum might be of help to you to look over.
People here will give sound advice on how she can get the best outcome achievable


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[MotCO]

. With the information above do you think I need to involve a solicitor to help or does she just reply back to the second email directly apologising, being contrite and offering to pay all the monies that they are owed?

The general advice for such cases is that you do not need to consult a solicitor, provided that you / your daughter engages positively with the train company.

They asking for information about each and every journey which I don't understand why when the law says you are guilty even if you didn't mean to fare evade.

Whilst your comment is true, it is also useful for the train company to get your daughter to confirm that all the journeys they have identified were indeed with an incorrect ticket (e.g. she may have had a valid railcard unbeknown to the rail company for some journeys), and also ensures that these journeys so identified cannot be included in any future case (but this should not happen if your daughter always buys the correct ticket from now on).

 

[WesternLancer]

They asking for information about each and every journey which I don't understand why when the law says you are guilty even if you didn't mean to fare evade.

Yes, this is because in some cases we see on here some of these trips will actually be legitimate ones for some people with no fare evasion involved, evgen if they are evading on other trips - so if the person being accused can persuade them of that they will remove them from the list of fares they are seeking payment for in any settlement, esp if they are convinced you are co-operating with them - then they (the railway company) will play fair with the passenger.

But obviously she would need to be certain that the occasions they are asking about were indeed taken with correct and valid tickets, and ideally be able to provide some supporting evidence to back that up (eg you go to x destination on Saturdays because you work near x station on Saturdays and here is the address of the place of work)

 

[jpar]

I think all the journeys are likely valid. Oddly looking through her trainline history there are many other trips she took between the short ticketing/wrong railcard ones where she did use the correct railcard and paid for the right journey. Doubt it will make a difference but is so frustrating as all this could have been avoided.
At the moment I am torn between getting a solicitor involved, which is so expensive, or trying to reply myself with your help. If we go it alone and it doesn't work then there will always be regret and "what if" that could the outcome be different had we got legal help as I assume if they don't offer settlement then its too late to get legal help to prevent.

 

[MotCO]

With respect, your daughter should be doing the legwork and checking the journeys. Yes, she messed up on one journey and was caught, but life is never fair and if she has to confirm that all other journeys were made with a valid ticket and railcard, than that is a valuable life lesson.

With regard to using solicitors, you will find that there is more experience and good advice available on this forum, and it's cheaper! If you engage positively, and answer all their questions truthfully and timely, you should be ok. If you start to encounter difficulties, that may be the time to use a solicitor, but if you scan various threads on this forum, you will see that most posters get a good outcome without using solicitors.

 

[z444z]

At the moment I am torn between getting a solicitor involved, which is so expensive, or trying to reply myself with your help.

You don’t need a solicitor. Not yet at least. But I agree that (unless there are circumstances involved that we aren’t aware of) your daughter should be doing the work here.

 

[jpar]

There are some circumstances (learning difficulties, MH issues etc.) so hence why I am helping. But thank you both for your cander and advice.

 

[z444z]

There are some circumstances (learning difficulties, MH issues etc.) so hence why I am helping. But thank you both for your cander and advice.

Makes sense! The next step is to review the list of journeys they’ve provided and decide whether you agree the correct fare wasn’t paid for the journey made, or if you think it was. If you think it was, and can explain why, SWR generally accept this as long as they think you’re being truthful. You could do this by just writing it out if it’s a small number of journeys you wish to contest, but if it’s a lot then it’s probably best to use the spreadsheet they provided (have they sent you a spreadsheet? SWR generally do without asking but it’s worth asking for one if not!)

Once that’s done, you (ideally at least with your daughter’s input) need to write an apology, promise it won’t happen again, and request to settle out of court, offering to pay the fares and their administrative costs. This approach has basically a 100% success rate with SWR from our experience. It may be worth mentioning learning difficulties and mental health issues - if they’re feeling really nice it’s possible this would cause them to decide to close the case with a warning - but expect to have to pay the fares, anything else is a bonus.

Post your draft here when done and we can help refine it.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There are some circumstances (learning difficulties, MH issues etc.) so hence why I am helping

It's clearly not for us to know how severe these issues are (that's your daughter's private life and no business of an internet forum), and you're probably already well aware of this, but if you do write on your daughter's behalf, it's sensible to include a letter signed by your daughter confirming that she is happy for you to act for her. Otherwise there's a risk that anything you send will be ignored.

Another way round this if this is an issue is for you to 'ghost write' the letter as from your daughter, and for her to sign it.

 

[jpar]

Will do. Thank you

 

[z444z]

In the interests of transparency, the OP has PMed me because they’re a little nervous having it all public. I’m going to share my responses but not their messages to me:

Hi! SWR will settle regardless, they aren’t going to see these different types of fare evasion as any different. The advice in my last post is still what I’d go with

When you say they’re asking for reasons, could you tell/show me what exactly they’ve said?

That’s a fairly short list. The first bunch can be explained by “I used a railcard I wasn’t entitled to, for which I apologise” and the second can be explained by “I did not hold a ticket for my full journey, for which I apologise”. I think you might be overthinking it a little

Would you be comfortable posting this back in the thread? I’m happy to advise but it’s best if others have the chance to give feedback too.

[LINKED TO THE PINNED POST ABOUT ADVICE OUTSIDE OF THE MAIN FORUM] With this being pinned in the section, I’m not comfortable giving further advice here, but I can tell you that you absolutely don’t need a solicitor for this, the forum has basically a 100% success rate with simple cases like these.

Your draft is good and would probably do the job but there are bits that can be improved - please do post it, redacting whatever you feel is necessary, and we can help.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the interests of transparency, the OP has PMed me because they’re a little nervous having it all public. I’m going to share my responses but not their messages to me:

FWIW I agree with all this

from advice I've seen on here by very experienced forum member:
"If this does not achieve a settlement and SWR start to move towards prosecution or court papers are issued then that would be the time to engage a solicitor."

such a solicitor should be one experienced in rail fare evasion matters and we can provide a short list of firms that have been mentioned on this forum over the years as having demonstrated that experience.

OP - even if court papers get issued we see lots of cases on here where out of court settlements still get achieved.

- but it is absolutely vital that wherever they are sending the paperwork must be monitored on a daily basis for post / e-mail and spam (court papers would not come by e-mail as I understand it) so action can be taken ASAP so if your daughter is a student for example and they are using term time address, she needs to monitor post or set up a Royal Mail redirect if she is away from the address for more than a short period of days.

 

[z444z]

must be monitored on a dial basis

Daily?

 

[WesternLancer]

Daily?

Thank you

 

[matt]

Just a reminder that advice should not be offered by private message

Offering advice on disputes away from the main forum. Please read.

Good afternoon everyone, An issue has come up in a post in this thread that we’d like to take a moment to clarify. Probably for fairly obvious reasons we are not particularly comfortable with a situation like that happening away from the main forum. We would always expect members who want to...

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