Advantages and disadvantages of 3+2 seating

[supervc-10]

I commuted on 4Sub trains to Waterloo & usually chose the carriage with 10 compartments that seated 6 on each side.

That was 120 seated in a 20m long coach. And there would sometimes be 4 or 5 standees in each compartment too.
That is 12 tons of passengers in a 28 ton coach.
I enjoyed it. I was in my early twenties.

The Subs were 2.82 metres wide ( I have never known if coach width is measured at floor level, seat level or elbow level where people are at their widest).
Southern 377s are 2.80metres wide, 707s 2.79m & 170s a tram like 2.69 metres wide, even the 2x2 seats & the gangway feel pinched

DMUs on GWR, 168s(?) are 2.85 metres wide (& 23 metres long)
& run on Southern metals from Reading to Gatwick without scraping platform edges.
They have 3 x 2 seating & are wide enough to do 3x2 comfortably.

Modern stock designers are too cautious re width, or want to save weight, & make trains narrower & thus less roomy then they need be.

I believe that the 165/166s are a bit too wide for a lot of lines, whereas the Turbostars were designed as 'go anywhere'. The 165/166s were designed for ex-GWR lines which had a bit more space apparently. The ones sent west had to have their ride height modified though.

 

[yorkie]

I think these days there is a general acceptance that 3+2 is a false economy; most new trains no longer have it.

If a train is going to be operating on a route where you really need capacity, then you are best off with more aisle/circulation space and 3+2 is absolutely terrible in this area.

I find it difficult to walk through the aisle in 3+2 without touching the passengers who are seated and I am in the completely healthy BMI range; this is because people tend to overhang into the aisle when the train is busy. If even I find it difficult, I am sure some of the 'larger' passengers I see would really struggle to get through.

There should be a ban on any new 3+2 stock being introduced, at least in the UK, where our loading gauge is more limited compared to some other places.

 

[Wolfie]

I commuted on 4Sub trains to Waterloo & usually chose the carriage with 10 compartments that seated 6 on each side.

That was 120 seated in a 20m long coach. And there would sometimes be 4 or 5 standees in each compartment too.
That is 12 tons of passengers in a 28 ton coach.
I enjoyed it. I was in my early twenties.

The Subs were 2.82 metres wide ( I have never known if coach width is measured at floor level, seat level or elbow level where people are at their widest).
Southern 377s are 2.80metres wide, 707s 2.79m & 170s a tram like 2.69 metres wide, even the 2x2 seats & the gangway feel pinched

DMUs on GWR, 168s(?) are 2.85 metres wide (& 23 metres long)
& run on Southern metals from Reading to Gatwick without scraping platform edges.
They have 3 x 2 seating & are wide enough to do 3x2 comfortably.

Modern stock designers are too cautious re width, or want to save weight, & make trains narrower & thus less roomy then they need be.

Re your last para you need to factor in carriage length and thus loading gauge issues too. Just because "wider" DMUs can operate (very possibly after work to ensure that) on one line it doesn't mean that is so on every line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2022 ==

The EMR Connect services with the unrefurbished 360s. This hits a very raw nerve with many London-Corby users, particularly those from Wellingborough.

The promised refurbishment, part of which is installing 2+2 seating, hasn’t even been signed off yet. So, looks like the poor Connect users will have to put up with tired, not-fit-for-purpose interiors for a while yet

I'm sorry but fares aside there is precious little difference between LNWR using 3+2 from Northampton and even further afield and the EMR services that you mention. There is brand new 3+2 rolling stock being bought for the former....

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Difficult/impossible to navigate with pushchairs too

 

[Horizon22]

My views are mixed.

Firstly, declaring an interest, I've commuted on 3+2 317s, so I know what it's like when all six seats are taken, I also know the idea often repeated on here that the middle seat doesn't get used it a bit of a myth - last to fill for sure, but they do get used.

In the off-peak, I'd say 3+2 is actually better, as quite simply more people can be seated before you're likely to have someone sitting directly opposite or alongside. At peak times 3+2 isn't pleasant, but it does allow more people to be seated. So in all honesty I'd say there's pros and cons. For middle-distance "outer suburban" commuter journeys I think 3+2 has its place.

I also used to commute on 3+2 stock in some peak situations and I saw it as a mixed bag - occasionally used, but sometimes people just preferred to stand especially as that level of crowding was normally only in the last few stops before the London terminal. Better room to stand is in my view, a better option than a really quite uncomfortable seat.

 

[MCR247]

There are differences within the fleet though. 377101-377120 have 2+2 throughout. I think there's also differences in the seat layout between 377121-377164 and the 377/4. There was a time when 377121-377164 were based at Selhurst and had separate diagrams but they became one big pool many years ago.

377101 to 377119 are the 19 with 2+2
377120 to 377139 are the 20 you describe
These 39 units to Connex specifications.
Then 377140 to 377164 are the Govia specified units.

Off the top of my head I think there is a couple of further differences between 140-164 and the /4s which are that the former do not have the plug sockets in First Class (or at least didn’t before the current refurb) and they also don’t have the divider and sliding door separating standard and first class.

 

[xotGD]

Given the choice of middle seat or standing I'll take the middle seat. Sometimes it is a struggle to get past the crowd standing in the doorway to reach the available seats.

But a 331 with 2 + 2 and tables is a nicer experience than a 333 with 3 + 2, especially with current loadings.