Advance ticket, train cancelled

[Halsebee]

A friend of mine is travelling from Sheffield to Worthing with an advance single now Her 1835 train from Sheffield was cancelled so she was advised by staff at Sheffield to get the 1902 instead. This means she will arrive at St Pancras 30 mins or so early. Her onward journey is via Thameslink to Haywards Heath then Southern to Worthing. She will have a good hours wait if she sticks to the exact trains from St Pancras to Worthing. Given her first train was cancelled and as a single woman she doesn't want to hang around alone at stations for an hour or more, is she entitled to get earlier Thsmeslink and Southrrn trains, as her journey has been disrupted?

 

[jfollows]

How can she arrive early if the 18:35 is cancelled and she takes the 19:02 instead?

However, she should have no problem catching an earlier train to Worthing if the disruption advised catching an earlier train from Sheffield.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Her 1835 train from Sheffield was cancelled so she was advised by staff at Sheffield to get the 1902 instead. This means she will arrive at St Pancras 30 mins or so early.

Like @jfollows, I'm slightly confused. The 1902 (from Sheffield) is to Leeds. If you mean the 1900 departure, won't this mean a 30 minute, or so, late arrival into St. Pancras?

 

[Halsebee]

Like @jfollows, I'm slightly confused. The 1902 (from Sheffield) is to Leeds. If you mean the 1900 departure, won't this mean a 30 minute, or so, late arrival into St. Pancras?

Apologies, typo, she got the 1802 from Sheffield

 

[Starmill]

Yes. This is fine.

2.2.1 Customers with connecting journeys.
Where multiple services or train operators are involved, operators should provide sufficient
flexibility to ensure customers can choose from appropriate alternative train service options,
beyond the two train services before/after limits outlined in the Mandatory Principle, such that
they can complete their journey.

2.2.2 Use of existing ticket.
The customer should be able to make use of their existing ticket when using the alternative train
services that have been advised. Customers should be encouraged to have their TCS notification
available on their journey in case of query by station or on-train staff.

Though they don't even really need to rely on this, as they're not outside of the usual 'two services before or after, by the same operator(s)' which always applies.

The policy still applies even if the customer doesn't have a timetable comparator service notification of an alteration to their journey, although if they gave an email address when booking, they should have such a notification.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/doclink/rsps1035-01-00-timetable-comparator-service-code-of-practice/eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJyc3BzMTAzNS0wMS0wMC10aW1ldGFibGUtY29tcGFyYXRvci1zZXJ2aWNlLWNvZGUtb2YtcHJhY3RpY2UiLCJpYXQiOjE3MjQzMjA0NDQsImV4cCI6MTcyNDQwNjg0NH0.cDC-hHw1zTiGzT0CvbPAJjtqusThIU2FWwstXFsE0dM

 

[MrJeeves]

The policy still applies even if the customer doesn't have a timetable comparator service notification of an alteration to their journey, although if they gave an email address when booking, they should have such a notification.

Except the CoP is explicitly for changes detected by the Timetable Comparator Service (TCS):

1.1.1. This documentation contains the commercial policies for customers who are booked on trains which have subsequently been cancelled or altered via the Timetable Comparator Service (TCS) process.

It's intended for timetable changes, rather than cancellations on-the-day, for which the same rules apply that have existed for ages (alongside the DfTO+EMR cancellation rules).

You will not get a TCS notification for a cancellation on-the-day.

 

[Starmill]

It's intended for timetable changes, rather than cancellations on-the-day, for which the same rules apply that have existed for ages (alongside the DfTO+EMR cancellation rules).

This isn't correct. The same policy applies in both circumstances. This is because, in many cases, it's actually impossible for a typical member of the public or ticket checking staff to distinguish whether a customer has been affected by a timetable change or a cancellation on the day, because what you refer to as a timetable change can happen late, and what you refer to as a cancellation on the day can happen early.

You will not get a TCS notification for a cancellation on-the-day.

Maybe you wouldn't send them, but customers will still receive a notification which looks and sounds about the same and comes by the same communication channel (email).

It doesn't matter, though, because the policy applies even if the customer never receives the notification anyway.

 

[MrJeeves]

This isn't correct.

It is.

The same policy applies in both circumstances.

It does, because 2 services before and after is directly included in the NRCoT today. But that's nothing to do with the TCS Code of Practice.

28.3 Where a train service is cancelled after you have purchased your Ticket(s), we will advise you what your alternative options for travel are. In addition to the validity that your Ticket automatically entitles you to, you will normally in such circumstances be permitted to travel up to either two trains prior or two trains after the affected service, using the same operator that you are booked onto. Where services are significantly less frequent and this is not a suitable option, we will provide you with an appropriate alternative. Otherwise, you can request a full refund in accordance with Condition 30.

I think it's unfortunate that it doesn't mention connecting services, but the majority of people who write these policies seem to think that passengers only ever make direct journeys on the railway. I think anyone with a few brain cells would understand that taking a service two trains before would almost always require an earlier connecting service, though!

This is because, in many cases, it's actually impossible for a typical member of the public or ticket checking staff to distinguish whether a customer has been affected by a timetable change or a cancellation on the day, because what you refer to as a timetable change can happen late, and what you refer to as a cancellation on the day can happen early.

It's really quite straightforward for staff who are trained correctly to tell, as the service will be in real time information systems but marked as cancelled if it's to be considered an on-the-day cancellation, or it will have been deleted from Darwin if it's a P-coded service.

CrossCountry have also gotten the hang of pre-cancelling trains in TRUST in advance of the day, and making sure that is reported downstream like an on-the-day cancellation rather than a pre-cancellation.

But, as mentioned above, it doesn't matter as the same rights are also afforded by the NRCoT anyway. My point was solely that the CoP is about a very specific scenario, which is not what OP ran into. This distinction will become far more important when the next version of the Code of Practice takes effect. It'll be clear how the rules differ for each when this happens, because the communications will change to reflect the differences.

The public don't need to know about the CoP because their retailer should be telling them all the relevant details when they need to know them.

 

[Adam Williams]

I do think it is regrettable that the industry has decided to treat "sub-48h" and TCS-driven cancellations completely differently. I personally don't think there's any sort of good justification to deprive customers of the rights and abilities that the new CoP will offer, based purely on the timing of the cancellation, it's yet more needless complexity.

It'll be clear how the rules differ for each when this happens, because the communications will change to reflect the differences.

Okay, and what's the point? What do we gain from this nonsense?

 

[MrJeeves]

Okay, and what's the point? What do we gain from this nonsense?

Hey, I never said it should be this way...

It's completely stupid.

 

[Starmill]

It's really quite straightforward for staff who are trained correctly to tell, as the service will be in real time information systems but marked as cancelled if it's to be considered an on-the-day cancellation, or it will have been deleted from Darwin if it's a P-coded service.

This isn't correct. Trains which are P-coded regularly show up in Darwin still. The reverse situation, i.e. trains which have been cancelled on the day but are suppressed, are also regularly hidden from the CIS at stations. Sometimes the customer gets a notification that looks very similar or indeed exactly the same in both circumstances too. Or they might get none in either circumstance. Even if you think there's a distinction, you won't find any staff trained to recognise one, for the rather important reason that some people don't get TCS notifications. That's very unlikely to change any time soon. So it's still considered to be a part of the policy. I deliberately didn't refer to the Conditions for a reason

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2026 ==

I do think it is regrettable that the industry has decided to treat "sub-48h" and TCS-driven cancellations completely differently. I personally don't think there's any sort of good justification to deprive customers of the rights and abilities that the new CoP will offer, based purely on the timing of the cancellation, it's yet more needless complexity.

Exactly. It's a nonsense because in practice the effect of policy is that they mustn't be treated any differently.

 

[MrJeeves]

Trains which are P-coded regularly show up in Darwin still.

Well, yes, as I said:

CrossCountry have also gotten the hang of pre-cancelling trains in TRUST in advance of the day, and making sure that is reported downstream like an on-the-day cancellation rather than a pre-cancellation.

I don't doubt others do this too!

The reverse situation, i.e. trains which have been cancelled on the day but are suppressed, are also regularly hidden from the CIS at stations.

And if the operator chooses to pretend it was always cancelled and afford extra rights to their passengers, they are most certainly welcome to, but that doesn't change what the policies actually are.

 

[Starmill]

Well, yes, as I said:

I don't doubt others do this too!


And if the operator chooses to pretend it was always cancelled and afford extra rights to their passengers, they are most certainly welcome to, but that doesn't change what the policies actually are.

The policy of EMR is what I said, because that's the policy of everyone who follows the Code. It's not correct for you to suggest that "the same rules apply as have existed for ages" because the policy is the same in both circumstances. Yes, the Conditions hypothetically could allow them to draw a particular distinction in these terms, for connecting itineraries, although I personally wouldn't actually read the Condition in that way as I don't think it's the most logical interpretation of it.

To those who have direct access to retail systems there's a relevant distinction, in TCS notifications and their technical role, absolutely. But to revenue protection staff, train conductors, general management and members of the public this distinction is simply not apparent, so they won't be following it.

The public don't need to know about the CoP because their retailer should be telling them all the relevant details when they need to know them.

I beg to differ. EMR's policy is that connections are to be respected in the way it sets out. That includes people who don't receive a notification, as I've mentioned quite a few times. They're hardly going to go changing that now to be more restrictive for later notice changes to schedules than earlier ones are they?

And if the operator chooses to pretend it was always cancelled and afford extra rights to their passengers

That's also backwards. There would never be a situation in which an earlier-advised cancellation gave "extra" rights than the same one advised later.