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A dark day for British defence

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At_traction

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Yeah, but being honest, if Russia, one of the greatest armies in the world can't win, that tells us we never have a chance...

Hmm. Someone might take the "greatest armies" bit as humour, though, when regarding the Soviet army. ;) In all, large, definitely, and well-equipped in terms of number and robustness of vehicles and arms, but that might have been it.

Too often the morale and combat effectiveness of the conscripts fighting in Afghanistan was, similarly to their counterparts in Vietnam, suspect. Although the soviets did eventually overcome much of the inherent rigidity of standard tactics and command structure to innovate and often gain tactical initiative, the proficiency of most of the troops available and the politically imposed troop level cap were still a considerable issue. The air assault brigades were the elite around which most of the successful tactics were built and, as in counter-insurgency wars since Algeria (and definitely Vietnam), the use of helicopter was to be the linchpin around which the success hinged. As a British commander during the Malayan insurgency (a notably successful co-in campaign) stated:

"The fewer helicopters you had the more troops you required. Give a hundred men helicopters and they will do the work of a thousand. A battalion with six Wessex helicopters was worth more to me than a brigade without them."

The western aid, especially in the precarious first years of the conflict, helped to keep the mujahideen in the picture as somewhat viable military force(s) and not merely a set of local traditional bandits (although these have done well since the days of Alexander the Great against all invaders). And although the impact of Stinger SAM deliveries has been overblown, for some time their initial successes did nothing to help the vital helicopter contingent of the Soviet war machine to cope with the various tasks at hand. At one point the helicopter operations in particularly Stinger-infested areas were even handed, clay pigeon style, to the Afghan air force helo units. As the mujahideen saying went: "we don't fear the Russians, but we fear their helicopters".

But, in the end, nothing short of immersion of the country in ground-level controlling troops and the rather literal crushing of a popular and traditional spirit of resistance might have sufficed to keep a Soviet-backed government in power. (In the process a large number of combat divisions would have been removed from the main front in East Germany ("the more crack, first echelon ones, thank you") - most of the Soviet air assault units were already in Afghanistan.) And for how long would that commitment have lasted? It would have been like with the other nations ("Soviet republics") of the southern USSR, subjugation of which took well over a decade and they reverted as soon as the Russian-dominated grip loosened.

So, to answer just in short this time ;), there's indeed a snowball's chance to gain a permanent sense of security to this country, at least in a western sense. "Which is a pity."
 
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ainsworth74

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More good news for the Royal Navy:

BBC News said:
Nuclear submarine HMS Astute runs aground off Skye

The Royal Navy's newest and largest attack submarine HMS Astute has run aground off Skye, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed.

An eye-witness said the sub - described as the stealthiest ever built in the UK - appeared to have grounded.

A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said: "This is not a nuclear incident.

"We are responding to the incident and can confirm that there are no injuries to personnel and the submarine remains watertight."

The spokeswoman added: "There is no indication of any environmental impact."

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) was alerted to the incident at about 0819 BST and confirmed it had run aground.

A spokesman said: "We have sent a coastguard tug to where the submarine ran aground on rocks at the Kyle of Lochalsh near the Skye bridge.

"It will stand by and monitor what will be going on. We think on the rising tide, at around 1800 BST, there should be some movement of the vessel."

A Royal Navy helicopter has also been at the scene.

Eye-witness Ross McKerlich said the submarine was about a mile from his home and appeared slightly tilted.

He said: "When I woke up this morning and looked out my bedroom window I could see the submarine.

"I am very surprised how far in it has come as there are good navigational buoyes there."

Mr McKerlich added: "There was a helicopter hovering over the top - it's now gone back and there are two Naval vessels from the local base, Kyle of Lochalsh, standing off to the north of her.

"Earlier in the day they did have ropes and they were trying to tow but now the tide has gone back and they're just standing off."

HMS Astute, built at by BAE Systems in Barrow in Furness, Cumbria, is believed to have been undergoing sea trials as it is not expected to enter service until next year.

Aside from attack capabilities, it is able to sit in waters off the coast undetected, listening to mobile phone conversations or delivering the UK's special forces where needed.

The 39,000 acoustic panels which cover its surface mask its sonar signature, meaning it can sneak up on enemy warships and submarines alike, or lurk unseen and unheard at depth.

The submarine can carry a mix of up to 38 Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes and Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise missiles, able to target enemy submarines, surface ships and land targets, while its sonar system has a range of 3,000 nautical miles.

Speaking to the BBC last month, HMS Astute's commanding officer, Commander Andy Coles, said: "We have a brand new method of controlling the submarine, which is by platform management system, rather than the old conventional way of doing everything of using your hands.

"This is all fly-by-wire technology including only an auto pilot rather than a steering column."

Submarine HMS Trafalgar sustained millions of pounds worth of damage when it ran aground off Skye in 2002.

Two senior commanders were reprimanded after admitting that their negligence caused the incident.

The sea around Skye and the island of Raasay is a training ground for the Royal Navy.

Source
 

LE Greys

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Just heard about it on the radio. Sounds like either rudder problems or the navigation system packed up (no captain would take the Navy's newest toy into dangerous waters on purpose). Both are typical teething troubles of any new vessel. Red faces all round.

They also said that there were Russian subs in the area. That doesn't surprise me, if any navy sent out a new vessel, they would probably send a Shchuka out to have a look. I expect they'll get chased off shortly.
 

ralphchadkirk

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What's more embarrassing is that they must wait for the tide now. The tide that will shortly display details of the vessels propulsion system! No wonder there are Russian subs in the area...
 

LE Greys

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What's more embarrassing is that they must wait for the tide now. The tide that will shortly display details of the vessels propulsion system! No wonder there are Russian subs in the area...

If they get that close, they'll be made most unwelcome. Expect vigorous sonar lashings and a demand to leave our waters quick and sharp. Probably better just to buy the papers tomorrow (plenty of press photographers will be there, and you never know what they might print). ;)
 

ralphchadkirk

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If they get that close, they'll be made most unwelcome. Expect vigorous sonar lashings and a demand to leave our waters quick and sharp. Probably better just to buy the papers tomorrow (plenty of press photographers will be there, and you never know what they might print). ;)
They'll be wanting a chance though. It's very unlikely that anything about the Russians will get into the media, so we've got no way of knowing what goes on down there!
 

ainsworth74

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If the Russians are cruising off the Isle of Skye then I would expect the whole Royal Navy will be sortied to chase them away from our brand new SSN. (By whole RN I of course mean two men in a rowing boat with a loud hailer :roll:;))
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reporting now that Astute has been dragged free. So now we just have to wait for the repair bill, which on piece of kit like an SSN has a good chance of being quite large...
 

Peter Mugridge

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And doesn't that just beautifully illustrate the point I made a couple of days ago about too few things doing too many tasks individually....?? ♫♪♫♫♪
 

Heinz57

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You've gotta laugh at some of the plans havn't you?

'Were going to save money in the Navy by building two new multi-million pound super-carriers'

Heres a better plan. Don't built the new carriers and keep the ones we have now. Theres nothing wrong with the Invincible class carriers, sure they're old, but they're good. Whats the point in building two new carriers when its been said that one of them will never carry jets anyway?

Basicaly the goverment are spending millions of pounds to build a giant floating ironing board
 

Drsatan

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To operate a carrier, you need a 'carrier shield' to protect the carrier while out at sea from anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and airborne assault. What strikes me as utterly ridiculous is that when HMS Prince of Wales finally enters service (remember, the second Queen Elizabeth II class aircraft carrier will be mothballed and then sold), most of the navy's surface fleet will be required to protect it while at sea, leaving too few frigates and destroyers for other tasks (like protecting shipping lanes in the Gulf of Mexico).

So, if this aircraft carrier enters the Persian Gulf without adequate support, it's going to be a very expensive sitting duck for Iranian warships or small boats laden with explosives (the USS Cole was damaged by a suicide boat while in port at Aden in 2000). The answer would be to order more Type 42 destroyers but it seems the money isn't available for that. Instead, why not sell both QEII class aircraft carriers and use the money to purchase more destroyers and frigates?
 

LE Greys

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To operate a carrier, you need a 'carrier shield' to protect the carrier while out at sea from anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and airborne assault. What strikes me as utterly ridiculous is that when HMS Prince of Wales finally enters service (remember, the second Queen Elizabeth II class aircraft carrier will be mothballed and then sold), most of the navy's surface fleet will be required to protect it while at sea, leaving too few frigates and destroyers for other tasks (like protecting shipping lanes in the Gulf of Mexico).

So, if this aircraft carrier enters the Persian Gulf without adequate support, it's going to be a very expensive sitting duck for Iranian warships or small boats laden with explosives (the USS Cole was damaged by a suicide boat while in port at Aden in 2000). The answer would be to order more Type 42 destroyers but it seems the money isn't available for that. Instead, why not sell both QEII class aircraft carriers and use the money to purchase more destroyers and frigates?

Tin cans are great at defence and protection, but they don't win wars. Without the capability to take the war to the enemy, by reaching out with aircraft, we would never be able to launch a successful invasion. Still, I agree that we need more cans, especially if we have a big target that needs an escort. My argument would be that we need to cancel the Trident replacement and spend the money on the surface fleet instead.
 

At_traction

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If the Russians are cruising off the Isle of Skye then I would expect the whole Royal Navy will be sortied to chase them away from our brand new SSN.

I wonder if the Russkies already got the sonar profile of the Astute (albeit at low RPMs)... Or if the running aground was a clever ploy to deny them the sonar profile in the first place. ;)

Reporting now that Astute has been dragged free. So now we just have to wait for the repair bill, which on piece of kit like an SSN has a good chance of being quite large...

Nah, couple of million £s to replace the anechoic tiling, then a mill still to test for any acoustic anomalies due to the collision. A bargain. :p
 

Drsatan

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Tin cans are great at defence and protection, but they don't win wars. Without the capability to take the war to the enemy, by reaching out with aircraft, we would never be able to launch a successful invasion. Still, I agree that we need more cans, especially if we have a big target that needs an escort. My argument would be that we need to cancel the Trident replacement and spend the money on the surface fleet instead.

Yes, since Trident will now have to be paid from the defence budget it would be morally wrong to deprive the RN of vessels to pay for Trident, which (hopefully) won't be used.

However, it's a catch-22 situation: if Britain gives up Trident, then Britain might seem weak in the eyes of other nations, but if Britain retains Trident then cuts back the RN's number of vessels to a barely sustainable amount the RN would seem weak.
 

At_traction

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Yes, since Trident will now have to be paid from the defence budget it would be morally wrong to deprive the RN of vessels to pay for Trident, which (hopefully) won't be used.

And at least in 2005 there was published concern about whether the W76 warhead of the Trident II D-5 was in fact as effective as planned in the first place. There was fear that the hohlraum created by the casing around the primary and secondary nuclear weapon stages would allow too much of the electromagnetic radiation to escape, thus creating insufficient compression on the thermonuclear secondary - effectively a fizzle. That is, if something that could still destroy Central London can be called a "fizzle"...

The problem with a believable underwater nuclear deterrent is to have a large enough number of platforms with a large enough number of warheads each to carry out a threat function with at least one submarine "on station" - the rest being in port or en route. An expensive arsenal to replace, including the modification to the subs themselves.
 

ainsworth74

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Or if the running aground was a clever ploy to deny them the sonar profile in the first place.

If the RN's ASW has been reduced to "S**t Russians! What do we do?" "I know we can ground ourselves to escape them getting a proper sonar profile!" Then well two things spring two mind 1) Just who the heck thought that was a good idea 2) We really need to work on our ASW drills! :lol:;)

Nah, couple of million £s to replace the anechoic tiling, then a mill still to test for any acoustic anomalies due to the collision. A bargain.

Well a bargain in the world of defence procurement anyway :lol:
 

At_traction

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Nah, couple of million £s to replace the anechoic tiling, then a mill still to test for any acoustic anomalies due to the collision. A bargain. :p

And indeed, not only did they run aground but also collided with the tug. ;) Add a couple of million more.
 
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