5 car 144/155 combo?

[ValleyLines142]

The Northern 150s have 5 different seating arrangements:

1. ex-FNW 150s with accessible toilet layout 1 (124 seats - lowest number)
2. ex-FNW 150s with accessible toilet layout 2
3. ex-LM 150/1s
4. ex-LM 150/2s (149 seats - highest number)
5. ex-ATN 150/2s - same as LM 150/2s but with 4 seats removed for wheelchair space.

The 150s are in a common pool so any 2 of the above could form a Hazel Grove-Preston service. The key difference though is a lot less standing space on 2x150s and the 150s having 3+2 seating making it:
a) impossible for 3 large people to sit in 3 seats next to each other
b) harder to spot empty seats

Also with the 150 seating being older (except in the case of the ex-FNW 150s) there is more chance of a seat being broken and with Northern a broken seat is sometimes removed and not replaced.

Good point, I completely forgot about ex-London Midland 150s.

 

[387star]

Staying with Northern and 155s it appears Northern have applied the current version of the Northern logo to the 155s despite the older style white angular stripes and lighter stripe remaining.

 

[150222]

A 5 car pacer diagram today was being worked by a 3 car 144 and a 150/2 today. Yet a single 142 was out again. Honestly!

 

[MCR247]

How is a 144+150 a 5 car pacer diagram? Surely that would be a 142+144 for example?

 

[150222]

Yes it is booked for a 3 car 144+142 but a 150 was filling in for it today. I said 5 car pacer diagram as there is two of them (the other being a 5 car 144). This thread is about a 155 filling in for a 142. It made for an intresting sight.

 

[MCR247]

Oh I see

 

[northwichcat]

Yet a single 142 was out again. Honestly!

Obviously the 2 car 150/5 diagrams don't get any PTE subsidy then.

If a PTE sponsored service is booked for a 144(3)+142 Northern can use an alternative combination that provides at least the capacity of a 144(3)+142 e.g. 144(3)+150 but if they run it as a 142+142 they get a deduction made from their subsidy, while if they run it as a single unit they lose their subsidy for that service for that day.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern was doing pretty badly at strengthening before the timetable change (only 60-80% average strengthening of services they were paid to strengthen in GM) wonder what its like since the timetable change, whether its got even worse.

 

[tbtc]

Are we talking about a single 142 on Calder Valley services? If so, was this a "Manchester" unit or a "Newcastle" unit (many of which work local Sheffield services)?

I ask as I thought that Leeds (Neville Hill) provided all Calder Valley stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Are we talking about a single 142 on Calder Valley services? If so, was this a "Manchester" unit or a "Newcastle" unit (many of which work local Sheffield services)?

I ask as I thought that Leeds (Neville Hill) provided all Calder Valley stock.

That isn't still the case. 150s appear on Calder Vale and are all based at Newton Heath.

 

[tbtc]

That isn't still the case. 150s appear on Calder Vale and are all based at Newton Heath.

Right. So was this a Newton Heath 142 in lieu of a Newton Heath 150?

 

[northwichcat]

Right. So was this a Newton Heath 142 in lieu of a Newton Heath 150?

From reading this thread it sounds like the service that is booked to run as a 144(3)+142 has run as a 144(3)+Sprinter on a couple of occasions and then the 142 has instead appeared on a Sprinter diagram.

In answer to your question I don't think it's a case of Newton Heath or Heaton but a case of Newton Heath and Heaton.

 

[455driver]

Would it not be easier to have say a double-formed service stop at a platform with the rear doors of the front unit and the front doors of the rear unit on the platform so everyone can get off?

Oh yeah, how do you propose stopping people falling out of the non platformed doors?
Never mind partially sighted people etc.


Pedant mode-
No doubt some thick passenger would open the front door of the front unit (or rear door of rear unit) and hit the dirt, sue the train company, get several £1000s and retire.
Mode off.

 

[boing_uk]

At Northern, we now have to close the doors from the REAR of the train, except when on a curved platform where visibility is restricted. But we can open the doors from anywhere on the train though.

And we are NOT allowed to jump from set to set mid-journey. We are the competent person on that rear set, whilst it would be the driver in the front set.

Hmm. Sounds like someone who is too risk averse is making decisions I feel. I wondered why the guards lately have been having to fight their way to the back of the train to open the doors instead of from the front, like they used to. It makes the South Fylde even more of a PITA to get revenue collection from than it used to be, I'm sure.

In what circumstances the need for a "competent person" to be in the unit at all times comes in to play I could not imagine.

 

[175001]

Hmm. Sounds like someone who is too risk averse is making decisions I feel. I wondered why the guards lately have been having to fight their way to the back of the train to open the doors instead of from the front, like they used to. It makes the South Fylde even more of a PITA to get revenue collection from than it used to be, I'm sure.

In what circumstances the need for a "competent person" to be in the unit at all times comes in to play I could not imagine.

We can still open doors from the front of the set, but we have to key out, close the panel, and walk to the back to close the doors.

Regarding the competent person, its more to with non-gangway units such as a 142+15* as if there was a division, and with the guard and driver in the front set, who looks after the passengers in the divided rear set??

And the priorities on my job is Safety, Performance....then Revenue. End of story.

 

[ChrisCooper]

We can still open doors from the front of the set, but we have to key out, close the panel, and walk to the back to close the doors.

Regarding the competent person, its more to with non-gangway units such as a 142+15* as if there was a division, and with the guard and driver in the front set, who looks after the passengers in the divided rear set??

And the priorities on my job is Safety, Performance....then Revenue. End of story.

Yet we're told time and time again than DOO is safe? Actually leads to an interesting point, in the event of a DOO train seperating, would the signaller be able to broadcast to the passengers in the rear unit/s via CSR? If not this seems to be a quite serious safety disparity, as it would imply either DOO is not as safe as is made out, or that Northern are going well over the top (considering how rare splitting trains are, I would tend to go with the latter).

 

[BestWestern]

We can still open doors from the front of the set, but we have to key out, close the panel, and walk to the back to close the doors.

Regarding the competent person, its more to with non-gangway units such as a 142+15* as if there was a division, and with the guard and driver in the front set, who looks after the passengers in the divided rear set??

And the priorities on my job is Safety, Performance....then Revenue. End of story.

I can see the point they are making about a comp person in each portion of the train, though the chances of a division are very unlikely and by making it a standard procedure they are of course gifting free rides to those in the front portion I presume?! Having to walk down the back at every stop sounds like a slightly pointless pain in the a*se to be honest

 

[142094]

I've seen Northern conductors open and close from the front doors, but this is very rare (normally only done either when there are a lot of people on the train or for some other operational reason).

 

[175001]

I've seen Northern conductors open and close from the front doors, but this is very rare (normally only done either when there are a lot of people on the train or for some other operational reason).

That won't happen anymore. We've signed a sheet to say that we have to now close the doors from the rear at every stop, except at stations where the curvature of the platforms hinder out view of the whole train. My examples are Deansgate towards Salford and Halifax. If we were to do close the doors from the front, that would now count as going against the company's dispatch procedure.

Its all to do with the James St incident, and by not going into that again, I CAN see the point of it, but many see it as a reaction, but in my honesty, I think it strengthens our position as Guards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see the point they are making about a comp person in each portion of the train, though the chances of a division are very unlikely and by making it a standard procedure they are of course gifting free rides to those in the front portion I presume?! Having to walk down the back at every stop sounds like a slightly pointless pain in the a*se to be honest

Indeed, but, as someone who walked off the street, straight on as a guard, one of the first things I was told by my trainer, was "Never assume anything on the Railway"

Certain peak morning services out of Victoria with two units have assisting guards to deal with the doubled up sets, especially on the Huddersfield line.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Oh yeah, how do you propose stopping people falling out of the non platformed doors?
Never mind partially sighted people etc.

Thanks for that -.-

Is it not possible to have certain doors opened?? I don't know these things, I don't build trains :P

 

[Nym]

Depends on the unit...

 

[O L Leigh]

Actually leads to an interesting point, in the event of a DOO train seperating, would the signaller be able to broadcast to the passengers in the rear unit/s via CSR?

Yes they can.

But in the even of an accidental division it is likely that the two portions will still come to a stand just feet or even inches apart (depending on the brake performance they may still be touching). If the units were of gangway stock, such as Cl317s, the driver would be heading back anyway to secure the breached gangway and would therefore be able to make a PA announcement on the rear portion at that time.

If it were ever to happen to me I would report the incident immediately to the box and then inform the signaller that I would be "livening up" one of the middle cabs and basing myself there until instructed to move. It would make me convenient for both portions of the train so that I can use the PA in both halves.

O L Leigh

 

[150222]

Today it was operated by a 3-car 144 & a 153!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Today it was operated by a 3-car 144 & a 153!

Probably because it's a Bank Holiday.

 

[150222]

I wonder how northern can practically enforce the dispatching from the back procedure? As a hypothetical scenario, A class 158 stopped at an unstaffed station e.g Mytholmroyd and the guard closed the doors from the front door of the rear car. In this instance the orange light would be on the rear carriage. As very few passengers would be aware of this rule and there was no staff around so he/she would probably get away with it, especcially at night. It certainly seems a difficult rule to enforce so I guess they must rely on guards to do their job properly and obviously the vast majority do. Although it only takes one. Yet I don't even understand this rule as at the St. James incident the train was dispached from the back. So what differance does it make other than to inconviniance the guard/passengers?

 

[northwichcat]

As very few passengers would be aware of this rule and there was no staff around so he/she would probably get away with it, especcially at night.

Some Northern guards working doubled up sets which aren't corridor linked have been known to throw passengers off the rear set part way through a journey and then lock the rear set out-of-use for the reminder of the journey.

 

[150222]

Does any other TOC have a 'dispatch from the back' rule?

 

[150222]

Friday 27/1/2012: on 1900 Manchester Victoria to Leeds a 3-car 144 & 2-car 158 combo.
Today (Monday 30/1/2012): On 0800 Manchester Victoria to Leeds a 142 & 2-car 158 combo.
On 1500 Manchester Victoria to Leeds was a single 2-car 158.

 

[150222]

On the 1613 Leeds to Manchester Vic today (6/2/2012) was a 158 & 142 combo.