365 C6X overhaul

[D365]

Recently the Class 365 'Networker Express' C6X overhaul has been announced as taking place at Railcare Wolverton over the next two years, starting in the Spring. All 40 trains (excluding the remains of 365526 - have the three intact vehicles been used again?) will complete this refurbishment, owned by Eversholt Rail. From what I know, the job will incorporate a mechanical overhaul, perhaps fitting the Hitachi traction equipment which currently runs on the BREL/Brush-built 465/0, /1 fleet - 365 is ABB/GEC. One of the minor modifications being made is to door seals as a result of several people having found themselves trapped. Furthermore, modifications will be made for DDA compliance and the interior will be refurbished - properly!

I am hoping for the passenger environment to be repaired and improved. This means A/C preferably, or at the very least improved windows (the slamming is annoying, as is the rush through tunnels!) and ball vent systems. A number of gangway doors have broken down too. The PIS is often broken and generally inconsistent. Apparently services terminate at BLondon or FLondon King's Cross! And of course, interiors need to be cleaned and 'panelling' fabrics need to be replaced.

Is this all true? What are you guys hoping for? And will the job be thorough? [UPDATE: As trains begin to roll towards Wolverton, more information has been made available on what the public side of the overhaul will entail - see to this post for more]

 

[Lrd]

Railcare are going to be very busy with all this as well as the Class 165/166s!

 

[millemille]

Recently the Class 365 'Networker Express' C6X overhaul has been announced as taking place at Railcare Wolverton over the next two years, starting in the Spring. All 40 trains (excluding the remains of 365526 - have the three intact vehicles been used again?) will complete this refurbishment, owned by Eversholt Rail. From what I know, the job will incorporate a mechanical overhaul, perhaps fitting the Hitachi traction equipment which currently runs on the BREL/Brush-built 465/0, /1 fleet - 365 is ABB/GEC. One of the minor modifications being made is to door seals as a result of several people having found themselves trapped. Furthermore, modifications will be made for DDA compliance and the interior will be refurbished - properly!

I am hoping for the passenger environment to be repaired and improved. This means A/C preferably, or at the very least improved windows (the slamming is annoying, as is the rush through tunnels!) and ball vent systems. A number of gangway doors have broken down too. The PIS is often broken and generally inconsistent. Apparently services terminate at BLondon King's Cross! And of course, interiors need to be cleaned and 'panelling' fabrics need to be replaced.

Is this all true? What are you guys hoping for? And will the job be thorough?

No Hitachi traction kit being fitted - IPR release issues with Alstom and prohibitive risks/costs to reverse engineer to fill the gaps have killed it. Brush had no reason to withhold design information to allow the 465 re-traction as they had no product to rival Hitachis', unlike Alstom on the 365's.

AFAIK door seals are being replaced like-for-like.

36526's vehicle's haven't been re-used. They are spare shells now due to the amount of kit "borrowed" from them. The trailing DMOS was destroyed by the MoD during anti-terrorism training for the Olympics.

 

[jopsuk]

on minor points- perhaps wifi and power sockets? Greater Anglia's 379s on the slower, cheaper route from Cambridge to London have them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

on minor points- perhaps wifi and power sockets? Greater Anglia's 379s on the slower, cheaper route from Cambridge to London have them.

eases the bordom?
TBH I quite like the 365s and if all that happens is new carpets, seat covers and a bit of general touching up is done
propperly
unlike the FCC atempt at a new interior then these will be great again. Perhaps a little upgrading in0First Class? A bit off topic but are the turbos also in for C6 and anything major internally?

 

[D365]

Railcare are going to be very busy with all this as well as the Class 165/166s!

Bombardier's closure of the Doncaster facilities was rather short-sighted, could have been useful - they did build the 365s in the form of ABB at York, the last at those works, and incidentally, the 'Happy Train' modifications for the ex-South East lot was the last job in Doncaster, respectively.

No Hitachi traction kit being fitted - IPR release issues with Alstom and prohibitive risks/costs to reverse engineer to fill the gaps have killed it. Brush had no reason to withhold design information to allow the 465 re-traction as they had no product to rival Hitachi's, unlike Alstom on the 365s.

That makes sense, the package was only designed for the Brush-built units. At least they keep their original sound!

AFAIK door seals are being replaced like-for-like.

The linked report recommends the replacement, although likely nothing has developed... How good will the refurb really be?

36526's vehicle's haven't been re-used. They are spare shells now due to the amount of kit "borrowed" from them. The trailing DMOS was destroyed by the MoD during anti-terrorism training for the Olympics.

That was the carriage which suffered the most damage. All the better for our games then!

on minor points- perhaps wifi and power sockets? Greater Anglia's 379s on the slower, cheaper route from Cambridge to London have them.

eases the bordom?
TBH I quite like the 365s and if all that happens is new carpets, seat covers and a bit of general touching up is done
propperly
unlike the FCC atempt at a new interior then these will be great again. Perhaps a little upgrading in First Class? A bit off topic but are the turbos also in for C6 and anything major internally?

They are my favourite EMU (no bias through location :P) and the interiors are well designed in general. A good clean, quality upholster, larger, nicer toilets as well as A/C (seal the windows, please!), an improved PIS and more reliable mechanics are priorities imo. Take out one of the FC sections too and slap a triangle on the outside, two in each unit is not required.

Refer to this thread for the Networker Turbo overhaul.

 

[TEW]

Railcare are going to be very busy with all this as well as the Class 165/166s!

It's always been coming with the requirement for all trains to be DDA compliant by 2020 and I doubt Railcare and other refurbishment companies will complain at all this work coming there way!

 

[millemille]

The OP's title is misleading.

ERG have awarded the contract for the C6X, which is a scheduled Level 5 overhaul not a refurbishment.

There are some additional optional pieces of work to "refresh" the units and also work on aspects of disabled access regs within the contract.

The contract budget is only £325k per unit, when you take out the likely cost of the C6 element (and given the high annual mileage of the 365 fleet and the fact that they've been having a C4 overhaul for the last year would lead me to suspect that some, or all, of the C6 units will also have a C4 at the same time as the C6) leaves less then £25k per vehicle for non-core work.

£25k per vehicle doesn't get you an awful lot of refurbishment and upgrade.

 

[D365]

The OP's title is misleading.

ERG have awarded the contract for the C6X, which is a scheduled Level 5 overhaul not a refurbishment.

There are some additional optional pieces of work to "refresh" the units and also work on aspects of disabled access regs within the contract.

The contract budget is only £325k per unit, when you take out the likely cost of the C6 element (and given the high annual mileage of the 365 fleet and the fact that they've been having a C4 overhaul for the last year would lead me to suspect that some, or all, of the C6 units will also have a C4 at the same time as the C6) leaves less then £25k per vehicle for non-core work.

£25k per vehicle doesn't get you an awful lot of refurbishment and upgrade.

Mods, please change 'refurbishment' in the thread title to 'overhaul'. [Has been changed, though I did not know at the time that an OP could do it themselves] It would be rather silly if no improvements were made in the passenger environment as the fleet is 'falling apart' a little, as I prior described. Us GN'ners would be fuming! [Though not as much as some people when they realised the 317/321 fleet must soldier on for a few more years...] Do you have a glossary on hand detailing CX overhauls and what these compromise?

 

[fgwrich]

From the Scotrail website:

C3

heavy overhaul on carriages and EMUs, combining C4 cand C6 work.



C4

overhaul of wheels, bogies, brakes and couplings. Carriages and multiple Units.



C5

Main Works repairs, outside the usual overhaul sequence.



C6

overhaul of carriage body, including doors and interior repairs. May include a repaint.



C6X

C6 overhaul with extra work, perhaps interior enhancements.

But i did write about these in detail last year as part of my Coursework into Engineering Planning - If i can find that today then i'll try and post some of that later today, some of which i learnt at a few depots i've worked in.

 

[millemille]

The exact C4/C6/C6X content is defined in the Master Operating Lease Agreement (MOLA).

I'm not sure of the exact content because I'd left the fleet when it still had a Bombardier Vehicle Overhaul Instruction (VOI) which wasn't the same as traditional C4/C6/C6X regime - the Bombardier regime had an overhaul every 500k miles (about 2 1/2 years) and the content was different every overhaul and it was constantly evolving as new reliability issues arose- and the fleet has been converted to the traditional regime since.

The C6X is traditionally a mid-life overhaul - which would roughly tally with the fleet coming into service in 1997.

I believe there's a change of all control relays on the 365 fleet C6X to remove the troublesome Seimens relays, which is a big job with a lot of testing on each unit afterwards.

There might be a repaint/corrosion damage repair in there as well.

When I was still involved with the fleet HSBC (ERG now) were talking about a massive mid-life overhaul that did include new traction equipment, new bogie frames, new 4Q converter, new interior, new bodyside door system and air conditioning to make them a "go anywhere 21st century unit" (sic), possibly partially funded by the DfT but this gradually got down-speced to what is being deliverd in the C6X.

 

[317666]

They are definitely in need of a refurbishment, but I hope they keep the current seats in them which are reasonably comfortable, just with new covers and maybe new cushions. If they fit the god-awful seats that are in the 379s I will be very, VERY unimpressed!

With regards to air conditioning, I find that the ball vents are actually very effective and prefer them to the air conditioning on a lot of other stock. The fact that you can adjust them so the air goes where you want, and how much of it there is is a nice touch. Although I think the hopper windows should be locked and only unlocked if the ball vents go wrong or something. As for the PIS, I find that the way it's set out tends to be good. Just "The next station is..." when approaching a station and "This train is for..." when stopped at a station. No constant annoying "Welcome aboard this First Capital Connect service to..." followed by all the calling points every five minutes, thank you very much!

 

[jon0844]

The ball vents are more often not working than working in my experience. So while I hate the draught from the windows, they can't be sealed unless there's proper aircon. It seems unlikely this is going to be fitted.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the seats, carpets etc and think the overhaul merely needs to fix the internal doors, the plug doors (IF there's a fix) and an upgrade of the CIS software. Basically a lot of things most people won't notice.

 

[jopsuk]

The 1st class seats could do with an upgrade- I only use them when I'm on a connecting service as part of a 1st Advance, but the 1st class sections are, somehow, shabbier than the rest of the train

 

[D365]

Deleted post as superseded by recent developments.

 

[D365]

Recently more information has come to light regarding the overhaul. First Capital Connect and newspapers around the Great Northern locality have announced the works to Average Joe Traveller. The most obvious changes one will notice will be a new 'National Express style' TSGN neutral grey/white livery along with an enhanced interior, including a new passenger information system. DDA modifications as well. (I hear the 4 WAGN advertising specials might be lost - 'Urban Lights' does suit them well imo)

No proper air conditioning though, it seems, as the 'hopper' opening windows still appear in the linked impression. Maybe that's a blessing though, considering where full systems have failed in the heat and passengers are stuck with sealed windows. Hopefully the new PIS will be as unintrusive as the current, but more reliable. Looking forward to seeing them!

 

[317666]

New livery looks pretty good I must say! I agree that hopefully the PIS will be unintrusive. There's really no need to keep announcing all the calling points, like on the new one fitted to the 315s, considering that at most stations an announcement is made as the train arrives which includes them. As I've mentioned previously, I also hope that they leave the seats and their layout alone, and just change the material or something like that.

 

[507 001]

I really don't see why TOCs seem to love painting/vinylling trains grey/silver/white these days.
It's bland and after a couple of months starts to look really, really tatty!

 

[starrymarkb]

No Hitachi traction kit being fitted - IPR release issues with Alstom and prohibitive risks/costs to reverse engineer to fill the gaps have killed it. Brush had no reason to withhold design information to allow the 465 re-traction as they had no product to rival Hitachis', unlike Alstom on the 365's.

AFAIK door seals are being replaced like-for-like.

36526's vehicle's haven't been re-used. They are spare shells now due to the amount of kit "borrowed" from them. The trailing DMOS was destroyed by the MoD during anti-terrorism training for the Olympics.

IIRC didn't Brush do the fitment of the new Hitachi kit?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't see why TOCs seem to love painting/vinylling trains grey/silver/white these days.
It's bland and after a couple of months starts to look really, really tatty!

It's a neutral livery - presumably designed by a Civil Servant to save a few pence on using Ray Stenning

 

[Class377/5]

I really don't see why TOCs seem to love painting/vinylling trains grey/silver/white these days.
It's bland and after a couple of months starts to look really, really tatty!

365 in TSGN livery. by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

This livery is the TOC's idea but the DfT's. After all the TSGN is a management contract not a franchise.

 

[507 001]

365 in TSGN livery. by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

This livery is the TOC's idea but the DfT's. After all the TSGN is a management contract not a franchise.

Yes I know that, and its beside the point, I used TOC for quickness. My point still stands however.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes I know that, and its beside the point, I used TOC for quickness. My point still stands however.

Yes it does. Look at the 379's for evidence of how dirty light colours get.

 

[D365]

Yes it does. Look at the 379s for evidence of how dirty light colours get.

Or the 'East Coast Silver' livery.

This livery is the TOC's idea but the DfT's. After all the TSGN is a management contract not a franchise.

With TSGN being a 'management contract', I am wondering what differences this will make and how the 'passenger' will be affected by it.

I am also wondering, will this livery be a long-term livery or just for the duration of the initial TSGN (whereafter it may be split). Will a non-specific livery remain for Thameslink? How about GN and 'Southern', in the medium to long-term.

Also, might this schematic be extended to other operators? (EC and GA franchises already have it, in a way, as well as ScotRail 'Saltire')

I've steered well off-track from my original topic!

 

[A-driver]

Or the 'East Coast Silver' livery.



With TSGN being a 'management contract', I am wondering what differences this will make and how the 'passenger' will be affected by it.

I am also wondering, will this livery be a long-term livery or just for the duration of the initial TSGN (whereafter it may be split). Will a non-specific livery remain for Thameslink? How about GN and 'Southern', in the medium to long-term.

Also, might this schematic be extended to other operators? (EC and GA franchises already have it, in a way, as well as ScotRail 'Saltire')

I've steered well off-track from my original topic!

I don't think it is a livery-just an undercoat like the other Siemens trains were delivered in and like east coast sets are currently in so thatitseasier and cheaper to re-liver in the future.

Considering no one has been awarded the thameslink route yet they won't have a livery or colour scheme in mind. A grey undercoat is neutral and easy to replace later.

 

[Class377/5]

Or the 'East Coast Silver' livery.

With TSGN being a 'management contract', I am wondering what differences this will make and how the 'passenger' will be affected by it.

I am also wondering, will this livery be a long-term livery or just for the duration of the initial TSGN (whereafter it may be split). Will a non-specific livery remain for Thameslink? How about GN and 'Southern', in the medium to long-term.

Also, might this schematic be extended to other operators? (EC and GA franchises already have it, in a way, as well as ScotRail 'Saltire')

I've steered well off-track from my original topic!

A management contract mean the TOC doesn't keep the fares but sets a set fee for reaching targets.

The main aim is that the group running TSGN is looking at meeting those targets only not trying to get more money. In theory it means they should focus on the targets much easier.

Remember during the London Bridge rebuild TSGN & SET are expected to experience a drop in performance of several % during to engineering works, reduced capacity etc.

It looks like the livery will be brought in on units requiring it. I'd bet that Southern units will get debranded from Southern with just a basic text on it unless units require reliverying for some reason.

That will help keep costs down too. From the 365 image you can see the Capital Connect branding, it will likely stay that way unless the incoming bidder changes them.

The livery won't be extended to any other franchise and I can't remember if they are thinking about going down the management contract route with GW.

Considering no one has been awarded the thameslink route yet they won't have a livery or colour scheme in mind. A grey undercoat is neutral and easy to replace later.

Under the management contract its the DfT decision on such thing as they have to authorize any cost not the group that runs the franchise.

For the record the first finished bodyshells are getting that livery as we speak so its already been chosen.

 

[jopsuk]

It looks like the livery will be brought in on units requiring it. I'd bet that Southern units will get debranded from Southern with just a basic text on it unless units require reliverying for some reason.

The rounded light green parts of the Southern livery are big vinyls, aren't they? As demonstrated on the partially liveried 377/6s. Could be they peel all the vinyl off.

 

[Class377/5]

The rounded light green parts of the Southern livery are big vinyls, aren't they? As demonstrated on the partially liveried 377/6s. Could be they peel all the vinyl off.

Very much but with the 377/6 there just a darker green underneath. Cheapest way is just replace he Southern logo just like on the 319's.