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25KV over Woodhead.

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HSTEd

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It's often brought up that Beeching proposed keeping Woodhead and the Bakewell routes whilst closing the Hope Valley route. We all know the reverse happened but if it hadn't was it actually envisioned that Manchester-Sheffield services would have been orphaned at Sheffiled Victoria if Sheffield Midland remained the main station?
If you are in the BR era it is probably relatively cheap to get a connection from Victoria to Midland some time in the 1970s or 1980s, analogously to what happened to Lincoln.
Possibly when the Sheffield Parkway road is built.
 
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eldomtom2

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It's often brought up that Beeching proposed keeping Woodhead and the Bakewell routes whilst closing the Hope Valley route. We all know the reverse happened but if it hadn't was it actually envisioned that Manchester-Sheffield services would have been orphaned at Sheffiled Victoria if Sheffield Midland remained the main station?
What Beeching proposed in the Trunk Routes report was focusing all trans-Pennine traffic on the Calder Valley and Woodhead routes while leaving the Hope Valley, Huddersfield, and Peak Forest lines to purely local service (which in Beeching's eyes meant inevitable closure). Passenger service was envisaged to largely be focused on the Calder Valley route, leaving Woodhead for slow heavy freight. It is notable that the "post-war modernisation of the route, providing electric traction" was considered a positive for Woodhead, and there is a suggestion that "the trans-Pennine electrified system" could be extended over the CLC lines to Liverpool.
 

Falcon1200

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the fastest timing (1958) on the Woodhead route was 51 mins with two calls at Guide Bridge and Penistone.

(Another) Achilles heel of the Woodhead route was that passenger trains could not, easily, serve Sheffield Midland; All other services from Victoria could be, and were, diverted to Midland. So either passengers were dumped off at a remote station with no other rail services, or there was the time penalty of reversal at Nunnery Junction, lengthening the journey well beyond the Hope Valley alternative.
 

Taunton

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I'm sure you're right.
However I cant help thinking that the closure of the 4 miles or so between Deepcar and Penistone was a mistake. It used to take 15 minutes from Penistone to Victoria and it's now 45 to Midland via Barnsley. Even allowing for a reversal at Woodburn a modern DMU ought to be able to do it in not much more than 20 minutes, giving a saving of 25 minutes or so on the 75 minute journey from Huddersfield
I believe that Barnsley, now served by services on the line, is a significant destination for the area, for employment, students, etc, along with some useful new stations along the way and the Meadowhall shopping centre, and overall there is far more value provided by running this way. The direct line from Penistone to Sheffield along the hillside didn't run through very much.

I've done various business trips over time staying in the hotel next to the line where it crosses the M1 to the west of Barnsley, and have been surprised looking out how well these services are loaded there.
 

HSTEd

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(Another) Achilles heel of the Woodhead route was that passenger trains could not, easily, serve Sheffield Midland; All other services from Victoria could be, and were, diverted to Midland. So either passengers were dumped off at a remote station with no other rail services, or there was the time penalty of reversal at Nunnery Junction, lengthening the journey well beyond the Hope Valley alternative.
The area near the junction of the Victoria and Midland approach tracks junction was being ripped apart in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
What is highly likely to have happened is a few hundred metres of track is laid to allow trains to reach Midland from the north without reversal.

In the interim, the answer is that Sheffield proceeds with two stations, just like Lincoln.
 

Falcon1200

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What is highly likely to have happened is a few hundred metres of track is laid to allow trains to reach Midland from the north without reversal.

Maybe not a great distance, but still expensive in terms of structures, track, signalling and electrification, all impossible for BR to justify when an alternative route which served Midland directly already existed.
 

eldomtom2

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Maybe not a great distance, but still expensive in terms of structures, track, signalling and electrification, all impossible for BR to justify when an alternative route which served Midland directly already existed.
The Major Trunk Routes report gave the following reasons for choosing Woodhead over the Hope Valley or Peak Forest lines:
(i) Its directness for traffic flowing from the East Midlands, and centres to the east and south, to the Merseyside area.
(ii) The favourable rail connections at each end of this route.
(iii) The post-war modernisation of the route, providing electric traction, colour-light signalling, and a new tunnel.
(iv) The scope for increasing the payload of freight trains from 750 tons up to the limit of present coupling strength-about 1,100 tons. The additional power can be provided by adapting the existing electric locomotives to enable two locomotives to operate as one tractive unit.
It's also worth noting that at the time more freight went over Woodhead (170,000 tons per week) than over Hope Valley and Peak Forest combined (130,000 tons per week). The report also states that "the majority of the future trains [over Woodhead] are expected to be in the heavy freight class, running at an average speed of 35 mph", whereas intercity passenger service is explicitly mentioned for the Calder Valley route, so it seems like the plan was to concentrate trans-Pennine passenger traffic over the Calder Valley line, which would make the issue of Sheffield Victoria moot.
 

HSTEd

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Maybe not a great distance, but still expensive in terms of structures, track, signalling and electrification, all impossible for BR to justify when an alternative route which served Midland directly already existed.
The choice, had social railway requirements not intervened, would have been between paying for that modification or keeping the Hope Valley line open in perpetuity.

As Woodhead was kept open for nearly another 20 years regardless. And this is before we consider the Calder Valley line.
 

HSTEd

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Can you elaborate on this statement?
Well as you mentioned in your previous post, you suggest that they may have wished to concentrate transpennine passenger traffic onto the Calder Valley line, although that seems a bit far out of the way for Sheffield.
 

eldomtom2

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Well as you mentioned in your previous post, you suggest that they may have wished to concentrate transpennine passenger traffic onto the Calder Valley line, although that seems a bit far out of the way for Sheffield.
Considering the report was of the opinion that the railways should focus on providing passenger service "over intermediate and long distances, while leaving shorter distances and cross country journeys to coaches and the private car", it does not seem implausible that Beeching et al were not especially interested in serving the Manchester-Sheffield market.
It was also of course a fairly broad-level report.
 

Bevan Price

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Historically, Sheffield Victoria had a better range of connections than Sheffield Midland, especially travelling to / from Manchester. It had through services to Hull (via Rotherham & Doncaster), Grimsby & Cleethorpes (via Retford & Gainsborough Central), and to Lincoln and beyond (Skegness & East Anglia), plus Nottingham & Leicester via the GCR London Extension. There were also services to York (not that Manchester passengers would want to use those.). The only notable place lacking connections was Derby - but the Matlock route was still available then. The run-down started before the Beeching report & Marples, with the loss of most of the London Extension services.
 

jfollows

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Historically, Sheffield Victoria had a better range of connections than Sheffield Midland, especially travelling to / from Manchester. It had through services to Hull (via Rotherham & Doncaster), Grimsby & Cleethorpes (via Retford & Gainsborough Central), and to Lincoln and beyond (Skegness & East Anglia), plus Nottingham & Leicester via the GCR London Extension. There were also services to York (not that Manchester passengers would want to use those.). The only notable place lacking connections was Derby - but the Matlock route was still available then. The run-down started before the Beeching report & Marples, with the loss of most of the London Extension services.
I only went through after it closed, which was a shame, but at least I once went through behind 76006 on the way to Rotherwood, fun times!
 

Falcon1200

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Historically, Sheffield Victoria had a better range of connections than Sheffield Midland, especially travelling to / from Manchester. It had through services to Hull (via Rotherham & Doncaster), Grimsby & Cleethorpes (via Retford & Gainsborough Central), and to Lincoln and beyond (Skegness & East Anglia), plus Nottingham & Leicester via the GCR London Extension.

All of those places could either be served by trains diverted to Midland, or were served already by Midland! And in every example, still are. Concentrating services on one station in Sheffield made absolute sense, operationally, economically, and not least for passenger convenience, and it was an unfortunate fact of history that the Penistone line could only access Midland via a reversal.
 
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