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Grand Central apply for Newcastle - Brighton direct

SECR 65

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If you were very clever, and in the absence of disruption, you could probably run Brighton on four or five platforms with the existing services (it has eight).

During the day the West Coastway only uses one (except two platforms (1&2) are only accessible from the WC) for what I think is a 4tph service.

The East Coastway services use a mixture of 7 and 8, but, generally, there is only one EC train in the station at a time. (4tph service off-peak). (Perhaps does this go back to previous 6tph with Lewes Terminators?)

Thameslink has a total of 4tph (2 Bedford, 2 Cambridge), and you often see two TL units in the station at once. But, as is proved by the WC, 4tph can be run with one platform...

Gatwick Express is 2tph. This uses one platform off-peak and two platforms peak (extra calls mean that basically an extra unit has to come out of the depot so units can 'step back' a diagram at Brighton, because these additional calls mean that the minimum turnaround time is fouled).

So some clever train planning and a timetable recast, I reckon you could fit some extra trains in.
 
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NCT

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Given the distances covered by the Thameslink services, you really don't want anything more intensive than 2 turnarounds per hour per platform.
 

XCTurbostar

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Last edited:
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On the basis of the ORR decisions on the West Coast bids today, I rate the chances of this being approved at somewhere between 0% and 1%, not least with Birmingham New Street being chock-a blocked.
 

The Planner

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On the basis of the ORR decisions on the West Coast bids today, I rate the chances of this being approved at somewhere between 0% and 1%, not least with Birmingham New Street being chock-a blocked.
That doesn't matter in this case, they were after the XC paths that already exist.
 

YorkRailFan

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That doesn't matter in this case, they were after the XC paths that already exist.
The XC paths will be contested by XC as well. Then there's the Brighton Main Line with its limited paths. That's not forgetting the revenue abstraction test as well!
 

NCT

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Have XC completely relinquished the rights to the paths they don't currently operate in? If so, what does this mean in the 'incumbency' dimension of path allocation? Can XC reasonably object on grounds 'this used to be our path'?
 

hexagon789

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That doesn't matter in this case, they were after the XC paths that already exist.
The XC paths will be contested by XC as well. Then there's the Brighton Main Line with its limited paths. That's not forgetting the revenue abstraction test as well!
Have XC completely relinquished the rights to the paths they don't currently operate in? If so, what does this mean in the 'incumbency' dimension of path allocation? Can XC reasonably object on grounds 'this used to be our path'?
I thought XC had already taken back the paths in May, to offer the now hourly Reading to York with two-hourly extensions to Newcastle?
 

winks

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Does Grand Central have rolling stock ready to go on this line or do the class 180s need to be refurbished before entering service ?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Does Grand Central have rolling stock ready to go on this line or do the class 180s need to be refurbished before entering service ?
The ten existing stock in the fleet had a fairly comprehensive refresh completed in 2019, extra padding and new moquette in standard, leather seat covers in first, etc. but the four EMR/Hull examples allegedly returning are still in a very tatty First Dynamic Lines state.
 

Bus5top

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Wonder if there will be a decision by early November for the Newcastle-Brighton route?
To be honest, The fact we haven't seen a direct "No" from the ORR, and the fact it has been in consultation for ~30 weeks, probably says something about the service. I imagine, if it goes ahead, there will be about 4 more revisions... I also highly doubt it will start by December..... I also would like to point out how the "4 new trains to the fleet" is most likely going to be used to strengthen their ECML service if the Brighton to Newcastle route doesn't go ahead so it was only the right choice to procure them.
 

Snow1964

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Wonder if there will be a decision by early November for the Newcastle-Brighton route?
ORR has already had the application almost 18 months.

Whilst it might take a few months to review and collect replies from interested parties, perhaps another couple of months if they want points of clarity, so total of nearer 7-8 months to decide

Not clear to me what seems to be taking so long to say yes or no
 

Bus5top

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ORR has already had the application almost 18 months.

Whilst it might take a few months to review and collect replies from interested parties, perhaps 8 months if they want points of clarity.

Not clear to me what seems to be taking so long to say yes or no
I honestly think it might be that they are trying to fit it in but struggling to find the paths- however we dont want a duplicate of the may 2018 timetable........
 

Snow1964

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And XC moves to increase stock back towards a full serivce.
That shouldn't really be a factor, if didn't want to operate it at date of application, and then didn't re-start it within few weeks of understanding the unused slots were being applied for, then seems wrong to consider it year later because saying might resume sometime in next few years, rather than actually doing it, isn't a fair reason.

Sitting on unused paths for 5+ years, really ought be be sorry you have lost them if someone else wants it. ORR is being gutless allowing unused (effectively abandoned) timetable paths to sit indefinitely
 

Bus5top

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That shouldn't really be a factor, if didn't want to operate it at date of application, and then didn't re-start it within few weeks of understanding the unused slots were being applied for, then seems wrong to consider it year later because saying might resume sometime in next few years, rather than actually doing it, isn't a fair reason.
Why deal with "Maybe" when you need Yes/No.... if you abandon the slot you must fight to get it back no? (Edit this is my opinion, others may disagree :) )
 

PGAT

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I honestly think it might be that they are trying to fit it in but struggling to find the paths- however we dont want a duplicate of the may 2018 timetable........
Is it the ORR's job to find paths for the operator? Surely if there were too many conflicts they would've just thrown it out and rejected it by now..
 

Bus5top

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Is it the ORR's job to find paths for the operator? Surely if there were too many conflicts they would've just thrown it out and rejected it by now..
Yes, The ORR should find the paths for GC, however they may need to shuffle other trains around to fit it in and keep tolerances if I recall correctly the standard industry flex is ± 5 mins, the fact that it hasn't already been denied is good- which is why I think the chance of approval is actually pretty high (with new revisions and amendments of the plan).... My main issue is how they will tie the sections of the route together as delays spread easily on such a route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If you were very clever, and in the absence of disruption, you could probably run Brighton on four or five platforms with the existing services (it has eight).

During the day the West Coastway only uses one (except two platforms (1&2) are only accessible from the WC) for what I think is a 4tph service.

The East Coastway services use a mixture of 7 and 8, but, generally, there is only one EC train in the station at a time. (4tph service off-peak). (Perhaps does this go back to previous 6tph with Lewes Terminators?)

Thameslink has a total of 4tph (2 Bedford, 2 Cambridge), and you often see two TL units in the station at once. But, as is proved by the WC, 4tph can be run with one platform...

Gatwick Express is 2tph. This uses one platform off-peak and two platforms peak (extra calls mean that basically an extra unit has to come out of the depot so units can 'step back' a diagram at Brighton, because these additional calls mean that the minimum turnaround time is fouled).

So some clever train planning and a timetable recast, I reckon you could fit some extra trains in.
yea- If you try run the 2026 timetable in SimSig you can just about squeeze them into 4 platforms, and comfortably on 5 :)
 
Last edited:

The Planner

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Yes, The ORR should find the paths for GC, however they may need to shuffle other trains around to fit it in and keep tolerances if I recall correctly the standard industry flex is ± 5 mins, the fact that it hasn't already been denied is good- which is why I think the chance of approval is actually pretty high (with new revisions and amendments of the plan).... My main issue is how they will tie the sections of the route together as delays spread easily on such a route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


yea- If you try run the 2026 timetable in SimSig you can just about squeeze them into 4 platforms, and comfortably on 5 :)
No, thats not how it works. The OAO has to find the paths (normally via a consultant if they dont have their own planners) and NR tells them if they work or not. You can flex only if those flexes work and aren't detrimental to performance.
 

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