Northern fake "Compulsory Reservations" Trial

Adam Williams · 2026-10-14T15:10:27+0100

Dewedin said:
Fair enough but Northern have now claimed that their quotas include seated + standing capacity, so would be useful to check if they've done a sneaky change!

Mmm, it's quite possible they've changed it. It shouldn't take being called out in a forum thread for them to not screw this up though.

In the "business-acceptance testing" environment it continues to reflect 108 when I check today, but the way the reservation system works is they only bother copying the configuration from live over once a month. So, unless I do it in production (which I'd get in trouble for and will prevent actual people booking trains!), I'll need to wait until early November before I can re-test.

RailUK Forums

redreni · 2026-10-14T15:11:34+0100

Maybe it's aimed at driving uptake of PAYG by making buying a ticket a massive pain in the Mule?

TUC · 2026-10-14T15:42:40+0100

Cell2025 said:
Please accept my apologies if I've got the answer to this in the thread but have overlooked or misinterpreted the answer.

If I buy an off peak day return the day before travel and then decide to board a technically sold out train the next morning (at a time of my choosing) how does it all work? Similar questions arise, obviously, on my return journey, which may be before the peak period in the afternoon or after it? The only data that can be scraped is exactly what train I travelled on, given a free reign to board whatever train I wish within the ticket conditions, both ways. If 50 people do the same then who do they throw off, metaphorically speaking? Those who have booked the specific train before it sold out, or those who purchased a flexible, and usually more expensive, option?

Or more realistically, none of the above?

Get on whichever train you want, within the validity time of your ticket. Any claimed new restrictions have no legal reality.

Bletchleyite · 2026-10-14T15:45:59+0100

TUC said:
Get on whichever train you want, within the validity time of your ticket. Any claimed new restrictions have no legal reality.

No new restrictions are being claimed by anyone as such (other than incidentally due to the bodged nature of this implementation, like Avanti's and LNER's). Again (please read the whole thread!) this is simply quota control on sales.

OscarH · 2026-10-14T17:10:11+0100

Bletchleyite said:
No new restrictions are being claimed by anyone as such (other than incidentally due to the bodged nature of this implementation, like Avanti's and LNER's). Again (please read the whole thread!) this is simply quota control on sales.

I would argue that setting a flag in the data you are responsible for that is displayed to end customers in many places including accredited retail channels, is in fact claiming there is a restriction (and the same applies to all the other TOCs who play this stupid game).

Adam Williams · 2026-10-14T17:18:36+0100

OscarH said:
I would argue that setting a flag in the data you are responsible for that is displayed to end customers in many places including accredited retail channels, is in fact claiming there is a restriction (and the same applies to all the other TOCs who play this stupid game).

Exactly this. There's already evidence that it confuses international visitors and customers who hold passes (Interrail, BritRail).

LittleRedTrain · 2026-10-14T18:32:46+0100

furlong said:
Maybe people should look for some blatant instances of overcharging (which could include paying more to travel using a later, peak, service when an earlier one with a lower, off-peak, fare is falsely shown as unavailable) and formally report to the ORR any retailers who may have chosen to break the law rather than ignoring industry requests to act seemingly unlawfully? (And if the ORR does nothing, try to get Trading Standards to kick them into action.)

Obviously doesn't apply to Northern, but certainly when XC were playing with fake compulsory reservations post-Covid, I saw instances where the only fare offered for a train was an expensive First Class ticket, when in fact any flexible ticket would still be perfectly valid in Standard despite it showing as sold-out.

I presume the same could still potentially occur with Avanti/LNER/TPE if they're using the same fake flag.

Of course, actually getting ORR or Trading Standards to do anything useful is unlikely.

Bletchleyite · 2026-10-14T18:34:05+0100

LittleRedTrain said:
I presume the same could still potentially occur with Avanti/LNER/TPE if they're using the same fake flag.

It very occasionally happens with Avanti, but as they now have very limited first class accommodation (only one vehicle at most times, two at most) it is very rare because it will normally sell out before Standard does. It is slightly more common with LNER.

mmh · 2026-10-14T18:44:10+0100

Bletchleyite said:
It very occasionally happens with Avanti, but as they now have very limited first class accommodation (only one vehicle at most times, two at most) it is very rare because it will normally sell out before Standard does. It is slightly more common with LNER.

It frequently happens here on Avanti on Sundays, when they provide the 'local' service because TFW can't be bothered to. 'Luckily' I'm usually going from a station where you can't buy a ticket.

furlong · 2026-10-14T18:55:05+0100

LittleRedTrain said:
Of course, actually getting ORR or Trading Standards to do anything useful is unlikely.

Until people who are actually affected and out-of-pocket start to kick up a fuss with the bodies that are responsible tor investigating breaches and prosecuting any companies profiteering or the individual staff involved, this sort of nonsense will continue. If people were overcharged and staff at the company knew this was likely to happen as a result of their actions, there's the potential for those staff to be prosecuted.

embers25 · 2026-10-15T08:08:00+0100

I wonder why Alex Hornby hasn't been heavily promoting this 'trial' given he has promoted every other change on X.

SuspectUsual · 2026-10-15T08:22:30+0100

embers25 said:
I wonder why Alex Hornby hasn't been heavily promoting this 'trial' given he has promoted every other change on X.

If you follow him on Twitter why not ask him?

Adam Williams · 2026-10-15T11:46:42+0100

furlong said:
Maybe people should look for some blatant instances of overcharging (which could include paying more to travel using a later, peak, service when an earlier one with a lower, off-peak, fare is falsely shown as unavailable) and formally report to the ORR any retailers who may have chosen to break the law rather than ignoring industry requests to act seemingly unlawfully? (And if the ORR does nothing, try to get Trading Standards to kick them into action.)

Blatant instances of overcharging, like not offering a Duo ticket at a time it's valid, and overcharging groups of 2 adults £8.10 a pop every time they book?

Northern's Trainline-powered TIS not offering Duo tickets, and overcharging passengers as a direct result of this bodged trial.

I do hope Northern will be proactively contacting affected customers and issuing them with refunds.

Also, it won't surprise you to hear that my view is that given this is the operator's fault for the data change they have made and the reservation system configuration they maintain, the most appropriate retailer that should be reported to the ORR/pursued is the TOC themselves.

TUC · 2026-10-15T12:14:56+0100

As ever with the rail system, the response to passenger demand is to seek to limit it rather than the normal commercial response. There's a deeper issue here.

t0ffeeman · 2026-10-15T12:30:03+0100

Adam Williams said:
Blatant instances of overcharging, like not offering a Duo ticket at a time it's valid, and overcharging groups of 2 adults £8.10 a pop every time they book?

I do hope Northern will be proactively contacting affected customers and issuing them with refunds.

Also, it won't surprise you to hear that my view is that given this is the operator's fault for the data change they have made and the reservation system configuration they maintain, the most appropriate retailer that should be reported to the ORR/pursued is the TOC themselves.

I've got a Duo ticket offered on the Northern website, its not obvious but is there also there is an evening restriction on it so you have to avoid those trains

Adam Williams · 2026-10-15T12:35:43+0100

t0ffeeman said:
I've got a Duo ticket offered on the Northern website

On which service?

t0ffeeman said:
its not obvious but is there also there is an evening restriction on it so you have to avoid those trains

There is no evening peak restriction for the Duo this flow. The evening restrictions only apply to a subset of routes. I am confident a Duo is valid on e.g. the 12:17 and the 18:07 back on the 20th, but this botched trial is preventing Trainline (buytickets.northernrailway.co.uk) surfacing it.

Even if there was an evening peak restriction, the problem reproduces all-day:

t0ffeeman · 2026-10-15T13:08:30+0100

Here's the trains I selected... I can't see it being offered on the app though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 minutes ago ==

Adam Williams said:
There is no evening peak restriction for the Duo this flow. The evening restrictions only apply to a subset of routes. I am confident a Duo is valid on e.g. the 12:17 and the 18:07 back on the 20th, but this botched trial is preventing Trainline (buytickets.northernrailway.co.uk) surfacing it.

Even if there was an evening peak restriction, the problem reproduces all-day:

Thats what I thought, the evening restriction appears on BR Fares now though. No idea if that was there before

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 minutes ago ==

Sorry my trains were Nottingham to Leeds not Nottingham to Sheff, but it should make no difference

MrJeeves · 2026-10-15T13:22:19+0100

t0ffeeman said:
Here's the trains I selected... I can't see it being offered on the app though

If you pick that Duo, it will change the trains to the "1 change" itinerary with EMR + Northern, changing at Sheffield, because reservations cannot be made on the direct Northern service.

You'll see the trains being used for the ticket before paying at checkout.

Adam Williams · 2026-10-15T13:22:59+0100

MrJeeves said:
If you pick that Duo, it will change the trains to the "1 change" itinerary with EMR + Northern, changing at Sheffield, because reservations cannot be made on the direct Northern service.

You'll see the trains being used for the ticket before paying at checkout.

And from the screenshot, note that it says "Out: 13:45" instead of "13:17, 14:17" etc:

t0ffeeman · 2026-10-15T13:27:50+0100

MrJeeves said:
If you pick that Duo, it will change the trains to the "1 change" itinerary with EMR + Northern, changing at Sheffield, because reservations cannot be made on the direct Northern service.

You'll see the trains being used for the ticket before paying at checkout.

Haha, good spot! Thats mad! :lol:

Northern fake "Compulsory Reservations" Trial

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