That's far from perfect but certainly orders of magnitude better than what reportedly happened.
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I had to crawl on my hands and knees to get off train, says disabled woman
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The wheelchair user *was offered this* by their own account, and they did not accept this option.
(Though the allegation, which GWR do not seem to address, is that someone told them they would have to buy a ticket to get back, something which may have been lost in translation during the stress of the incident or may well have been true).
It does not appear that the passenger crawling off the train was GWR's suggestion. Their suggestion was to go to Bristol and come back - that is, to double back - as is standard with passengers who cannot alight at a platform, albeit in different circumstances.
Swedenorer
Member
In these circumstances it shouldn't even be seen as an option. Doubling back was the only safe way to deal with this from a pax and operating point of view.
It may mean that at least one door of all carriages iis adjacent to the platform, thus solving the ramp problem.
MargaretNoodle
Member
I don't know anything about the Passenger Assistance app but could it not be possible, once the system knows where the passenger is going to have a safeguard where the staff confirms the length of the train in front of them and that the passenger is being loaded into a coach at least X from the front/back (which the app calculates as one that will open at their destination station based on the length of train inputed by staff).
It's probably difficult for every staff member to remember the lengths and operating practices at every station and as we know the formation can often be different from what is displayed on departure screens so an automatic system probably won't work but if the staff confirm against what is actually in front of them.
Truly must be an awful experience for Phoebe and something that really shouldn't be happening, yet continues to happen all too often.
It's probably difficult for every staff member to remember the lengths and operating practices at every station and as we know the formation can often be different from what is displayed on departure screens so an automatic system probably won't work but if the staff confirm against what is actually in front of them.
Truly must be an awful experience for Phoebe and something that really shouldn't be happening, yet continues to happen all too often.
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Chiltern 165
Member
Does RTT (or any other data source) reliably get carriage orientations?
No, it wouldn't, as a 201m platform cannot accommodate this on a 260m train. The end vehicles would be both fully off the platform.
Thats why the wheelchair carriage should be in the middlemost one on all stock. With two or three spots. The 700s do this very well. Why is it desirable to put them in end coaches?
You'd also have a common area on the platform for wheelchair users to board.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
No. Last time I used an IEP (Penzance to Paddington) the rear unit was back to front, but neither RTT nor the PIS said so. (making it look as if our reserved seats were in 1st Class !
I posted one reason why up thread. The GWR network is nothing like the Thameslink network.
A lot of this seems somewhat baffling to me. My job within the entertainment industry sees me dealing with operations on a day to day basis. Whilst i have next to no experience when it comes to procedure on the railway i do feel i have a decent grasp of how things should be able to work and if we look at the safety aspects that will be at play here, i do deal with planning and reports based around areas containing multiple hazards and sometimes upwards of 50,000 people where by the level of alcohol (and no doubt other things) consumed makes them much less compliant than MOST people on the average 9 or 10 car train. So i get that there are some things that have to be done a certain way, i get there are limitations and i get that every single thing needs to be dynamically risk assessed when a situation like this occurs. In short, i understand why it's not possible to just move a train back a bit to deal with an issue.
So this brings me to several points and questions that maybe some people here will be able to answer, it may be something for people to ponder, or it may just summarise things from the thread. If we start at the beginning of the developing situation, the passenger may or may not have reserved a wheelchair space on board this service, we don't know this, they're encouraged but certainly not obliged to do so, but either way at some point between say 3 months before the journey to immediately before departure "the railway" became aware that a passenger was using the wheelchair space in question and wished to alight at Bath Spa. The realistic minimum amount of time the railway is aware of this is around 1hr15 before the train arrives at Bath Spa.
At a point before this incident occurred the 2 5 car trains were coupled together in the way they remained during the incident. There are 4 combinations of formations with these, reading the thread suggests that there IS a "normal" formation and on this day (and perhaps several days before) this train wasn't in the "normal" formation.
GWR (and of course most if not all operators) has a number of stations where certain configurations / formations of their trains don't fit certain platforms or at the very least there are factors that need to be considered when stopping there (Such as the platform 5 at King's cross with a 5 car Azuma in reverse situation). Whilst we shouldn't expect every member of staff to know every station and every train and every configuration it shouldn't be beyond "the railway" to develop a system that DOES know every station and train and configuration. At best this could, on input, flag an issue like this immediately, or if they wanted to save money they could at the very least set a flag on a train that isn't running in "normal" configuration. This sort of thing already exists as PIS at stations will often show trains running in reverse. It's unreliable but that is only because the data isn't inputted properly, this is merely a discipline issue.
So GWR know the configuration of the train, the staff at Paddington know there is a wheelchair user at the very front. It shouldn't be in any way complicated to communicate with everyone involved. This cannot be the first time that a 10 car train NOT in "normal" configuration has called at Bath Spa and it cannot be the first time a wheelchair user has boarded or alighted at Bath Spa, and i would put money on it not being the first time a wheelchair user has needed to alight at Bath Spa on a train that is not in its normal formation. I suspect when this has happened before the passenger has indeed gone to the next stop and returned. We won't have heard about these incidents as they hadn't developed into as big a farce as this one. So whilst we can argue that the passenger could have done the same, we may even form the opinion that they should have done the same, i simply cannot buy the notion that this is the first time this has happened so staff at Bath Spa almost certainly MUST know that a 10 car in that formation is a problem.
A question to anyone who knows, or a question to ponder if not. I would immediately discount setting back, there are definite rules on this and i cannot see how this would ever be a viable option. However, stopping short, allowing the wheelchair user to alight and then drawing forwards to the regular stop point, is there a procedure for this with GWR, or any other operator? Does it come under a general procedure for moving trains, is there something specific? If there is, why wasn't it implemented here? If there isn't, why not? There is absolutely no reason that i can see (and i welcome those in the know to correct me and those not in the know to make suggestions if they're labelled as such) why this couldn't BECOME a thing if it isn't already.
It's one thing the railway continuing to make these mistakes every day, but if we don't implement rules, regulations, procedures to stop these things happening as a result of learning from these mistakes then the railway is really showing its true colours when it comes to how it feels about disabled passengers. Sadly, i think we already know how it feels and yet again we see total reliance on the staff on the ground to do what they can.
So this brings me to several points and questions that maybe some people here will be able to answer, it may be something for people to ponder, or it may just summarise things from the thread. If we start at the beginning of the developing situation, the passenger may or may not have reserved a wheelchair space on board this service, we don't know this, they're encouraged but certainly not obliged to do so, but either way at some point between say 3 months before the journey to immediately before departure "the railway" became aware that a passenger was using the wheelchair space in question and wished to alight at Bath Spa. The realistic minimum amount of time the railway is aware of this is around 1hr15 before the train arrives at Bath Spa.
At a point before this incident occurred the 2 5 car trains were coupled together in the way they remained during the incident. There are 4 combinations of formations with these, reading the thread suggests that there IS a "normal" formation and on this day (and perhaps several days before) this train wasn't in the "normal" formation.
GWR (and of course most if not all operators) has a number of stations where certain configurations / formations of their trains don't fit certain platforms or at the very least there are factors that need to be considered when stopping there (Such as the platform 5 at King's cross with a 5 car Azuma in reverse situation). Whilst we shouldn't expect every member of staff to know every station and every train and every configuration it shouldn't be beyond "the railway" to develop a system that DOES know every station and train and configuration. At best this could, on input, flag an issue like this immediately, or if they wanted to save money they could at the very least set a flag on a train that isn't running in "normal" configuration. This sort of thing already exists as PIS at stations will often show trains running in reverse. It's unreliable but that is only because the data isn't inputted properly, this is merely a discipline issue.
So GWR know the configuration of the train, the staff at Paddington know there is a wheelchair user at the very front. It shouldn't be in any way complicated to communicate with everyone involved. This cannot be the first time that a 10 car train NOT in "normal" configuration has called at Bath Spa and it cannot be the first time a wheelchair user has boarded or alighted at Bath Spa, and i would put money on it not being the first time a wheelchair user has needed to alight at Bath Spa on a train that is not in its normal formation. I suspect when this has happened before the passenger has indeed gone to the next stop and returned. We won't have heard about these incidents as they hadn't developed into as big a farce as this one. So whilst we can argue that the passenger could have done the same, we may even form the opinion that they should have done the same, i simply cannot buy the notion that this is the first time this has happened so staff at Bath Spa almost certainly MUST know that a 10 car in that formation is a problem.
A question to anyone who knows, or a question to ponder if not. I would immediately discount setting back, there are definite rules on this and i cannot see how this would ever be a viable option. However, stopping short, allowing the wheelchair user to alight and then drawing forwards to the regular stop point, is there a procedure for this with GWR, or any other operator? Does it come under a general procedure for moving trains, is there something specific? If there is, why wasn't it implemented here? If there isn't, why not? There is absolutely no reason that i can see (and i welcome those in the know to correct me and those not in the know to make suggestions if they're labelled as such) why this couldn't BECOME a thing if it isn't already.
It's one thing the railway continuing to make these mistakes every day, but if we don't implement rules, regulations, procedures to stop these things happening as a result of learning from these mistakes then the railway is really showing its true colours when it comes to how it feels about disabled passengers. Sadly, i think we already know how it feels and yet again we see total reliance on the staff on the ground to do what they can.
Bath Spa is currently 195m for platform 1, and 279m for platform 2 (per Western sectional appendix route 105)
A planning application for listed Building consent was submitted earlier this year (Bath and North East Somerset ref 26/01549/LBA) to extend platforms 5.63m at Bristol end, but only 0.93m at London end which was permitted 26th August.
Planning Application Details
app.bathnes.gov.uk
There is a full background and info regarding the platform lengthening on this link, which includes
Would the extra 6.5m platform have prevented this or could it still happen
No it won’t but it might mitigate the issue if an incident occurs.
I don’t use Bath Spa railway station but my impression is that the front of train currently stops past the end of the platform. This extension according to the documents will enable the 9/10 car stop boards to merge and the front door of the train to be on the platform, so that the worst scenario will be someone in the rear set, which can be solved by drawing the train forwards if that is achievable.
Sorry, but I don't believe a word of that version of events from the wheelchair user.
If it's a 9-car set, all doors to the wheelchair accessible areas will be platformed.
If it's a 10-car set, the front wheelchair accessible area is off the platform. The other THREE areas will be platformed.
"Her family spoke to the assistance desk and were taken to the only designated wheelchair space on the train"
Simply not true. Even with a 5 or 9-car, there's still two wheelchair accessible areas.
I would suggest they had booked First Class seats, it was a 10-car set in reverse meaning the front First Class vehicles would not be platformed. The passengers insisted on sitting in that area as they had paid for First Class.
"While on the train, staff checked which station she would be getting off at numerous times during the incident in December 2025, she added"
In other words, staff knew they were in the wrong part of the train to alight (you wouldn't keep asking otherwise) and repeatedly asked them wether they want to move to a different portion of the train to alight at Bath. They refused to do this so were advised that they may be liable to purchase another ticket to get back from Bristol.
"When they got to Bath Spa, she said they were told by staff to stay on the train and get off at Bristol Temple Meads - a 15 to 20 minute journey - before buying another ticket back to Bath Spa so she could get off"
Staff work these trains daily. You've got the passenger assist guys at Paddington, Customer Hosts on the train and a Train Manager. I find it extremely hard to believe they'd all not realise this error.
If it's a 9-car set, all doors to the wheelchair accessible areas will be platformed.
If it's a 10-car set, the front wheelchair accessible area is off the platform. The other THREE areas will be platformed.
"Her family spoke to the assistance desk and were taken to the only designated wheelchair space on the train"
Simply not true. Even with a 5 or 9-car, there's still two wheelchair accessible areas.
I would suggest they had booked First Class seats, it was a 10-car set in reverse meaning the front First Class vehicles would not be platformed. The passengers insisted on sitting in that area as they had paid for First Class.
"While on the train, staff checked which station she would be getting off at numerous times during the incident in December 2025, she added"
In other words, staff knew they were in the wrong part of the train to alight (you wouldn't keep asking otherwise) and repeatedly asked them wether they want to move to a different portion of the train to alight at Bath. They refused to do this so were advised that they may be liable to purchase another ticket to get back from Bristol.
"When they got to Bath Spa, she said they were told by staff to stay on the train and get off at Bristol Temple Meads - a 15 to 20 minute journey - before buying another ticket back to Bath Spa so she could get off"
Staff work these trains daily. You've got the passenger assist guys at Paddington, Customer Hosts on the train and a Train Manager. I find it extremely hard to believe they'd all not realise this error.
The Automatic Selective Door Operation might be an issue here. Normally with these units, the driver stops the train and releases the doors. The train expects to be stopped in a certain place and unless manually overridden will open the doors which should be on the platform, regardless of whether they actually are on the platform.
On the trains I worked, door control was in the hands of the guard. So manually overriding on the occasions where I did need to draw the train forward to allow a wheelchair/bicycle to board/alight, or to keep a crossing clear if we were detained was much less fraught, I had a much clearer view of what was and wasn't platformed than a driver would.
if I recall GWR 5 car sets only have a wheelchair accessible space in the first class carriage, none in standard.
So a 10 car set only has 2 areas, both the first class compartments.
I don't know where you are getting the idea that there were 'three other areas all
Platformed'.
You are seem to know a lot of what happened on board between staff and customers were you there?
You are saying that what happened is not true yet your own knowledge of the layout of the trains is incorrect.
We can all Speculate about what did or did not happen, but in reality they only people who know what happened are the customer and any staff who had direct contact with the customers
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I know they have an accessible toilet in standard on a 5-car, I just assumed based that then there would be a wheelchair accessible space, but I stand corrected. Keep your hair on!
The fact remains that in reverse, the front wheelchair accessible spaces on a 10-car would not be platformed. The passenger states they were asked numerous times what station they were alighting so at, so it sounds very much as if the staff were fully aware of the issue. You don't need to ask more then once. Customer hosts and a train manager who work the route near enough daily, they won't make that mistake.
In the very unlikely event it was a staff error, you would simply endorse their ticket for a return from Bristol. You simply would not apologise for error, and then literally proceed to charge them for it
I'm not saying it's not true, I just find their version of events very hard to believe.
Coincidentally before this thread appeared I watched a YouTube video in which a wheelchair user refused to be inconvenienced by operational rigidity in the wake of a train in reverse formation.
Killingworth
Established Member
We are witnessing the results of when human nature responds to stressful situations and how all the parties will have reacted according to the information they held at the point at which their involvement began.
There were no flies on all the walls to have independently recorded everything that was said and done during the entire journey from Paddington onwards, be that inside the carriages or outside amongst staff trying to resolve the situation.
It's not difficult to imagine the stresses experienced by rail staff wanting to move the train on, at first unaware of the detailed situation developing in that first carriage. The presence of the parents may have added to tensions within the coach when the lady decided she'd crawl. I suspect, but can't know, they didn't suggest that course. Someone does seem to have moved her (folding?) wheelchair back through those 3 coaches without her in it and then wheeled her down a ramp.
All this must have taken more than 5 minutes and involved the train crew and platform staff. At some point the not unreasonable suggestion of leaving at Bristol was made. Whether it was actually said (or by who) that 3 tickets back to Bath would be needed we don't know. In the heat of the moment that might have been inferred but the offer of a free taxi back doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone in a position to have arranged it. On a bad day I might well have got down on the floor to crawl!
Who subsequently said what, where, when and how to resolve the totally justified initial complaint has further compounded the initial grievance.
It's simple to say that all carriages on all trains should fit into all platforms where they stop. A lot of them don't and can't be made to at realistic expense. Which means more attention is needed to the cheaper course of looking after individual cases.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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I mean you are the one who went on a rant about how the person must be lying and invented a load of nonsene abiut what you thought happened! So maybe dont assume beforehand? Its this kind of thing disabled people have to deal with every single day with attitude, and then they get told to "keep your hair on".
How is it very unlikely? This kind of thing happens all of the time. To the extent that one famous disabled person is often labelled a troll or troublemaker or that she must be trying to find herself in such positions. No, it just happens much much more than it should.
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She was helped on the train at Paddington. That means the staff knew. Or at least very just should have. If they didnt id say that would be a pretty damming indication for how bad things are.
You’d have impatient people pulling egress devices left, right & centre if you did that somewhere as busy as Bath, not to mention a likely heaving platform with folk queued up wondering why they can’t get on. You’ll then have a rush of people trying to use the one door that has been opened to allow the wheelchair user to alight, and then have to move everybody away from the train in order to undertake the dispatch process to move it forwards. In short, completely impractical.
I never said she must bs lying. There’s part of the story that simply don‘t ring true.
It is very unlikely. You’ve had a passenger assists at Paddington, at least one customer host and a train manager. Again, it’s very unlikely that all of them have not realised the error. Bath is a very busy and popular station.
We’ve had situations before whereby a wheelchair user has had to be relocated on a train at an intermediate station. Doesn’t matter if it causes a delay.
One famous person is often labelled a troll or a troublemaker….. if it’s the same famous person I’m thinking of, ask the staff at Westminster tube station what they think of them!
You are saying it’s not true as you say they won’t make that mistake.
Yes I believe that is the scenario I mentioned, a 5 car in reverse on p5 is it?
In my recent travels (none of which has been on GWR for completeness) I’ve witnessed wheelchair users be assisted into a train and then nobody turn up where they alight on more than one occasion. This lack of communication for whatever reason is rife. Clearly there needs to be a system implemented that keeps a track of passengers that have booked assistance that informs staff at a station what train they’re on and what they require because I can only assume there is absolutely nothing in place currently with the amount of times I see things fail.
This is the sort of response I expected and I guess hoped for in a way. Of course if there were procedures in place to deal with it then it would have to be fine, because that’s the whole point, but there aren’t it seems.
They had 1hr15 or more to communicate between staff at Paddington, staff at Bath, signallers, staff in whatever department is overseeing passenger assistance, the local taxi company, but (and it’s no surprise to see those select few here who can’t accept the railway has got it wrong) none of that happened.
It’s the railway having an opinion about a passenger, it’s already negative, so if a passenger has additional accessibility needs I can only imagine what the railway thinks of them. Maybe the people of Westminster tube station are on here and will comment, or maybe one day we’ll get to see their opinion in a documentary about how utterly abysmal (or otherwise) the railway often is at looking after wheel chair users.
bcarmicle
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GWR accept they had multiple opportunities to react to this in their response, so I am not sure why this is in dispute.
Indeed.
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And, in those multiple opportunities, did the square root of sweet FA useful. Yet despite that the "blame the passenger, clear the staff" brigade still spout rubbish.
I’m unsure the point that you’re making there; I’m merely pointing out the reasons why stopping short and then repositioning a train at somewhere such as Bath is operationally challenging in today’s climate, and therefore might be unlikely to be viewed as a viable solution. Things don’t become “fine” just because you put a procedure in place, there are certain scenarios which will always be seen as impractical for whatever reason and so are not likely to be chosen as a way of doing things.
Presumably on the approaches to Bath there would have been PIS announcements, multiple times, saying 'passengers for Bath must be in the rear 9 coaches. Passengers in coach 1 please move back one coach'. That surely would have alerted somebody that there would be an issue before they arrived there.
Not always audible; not always listened to - and indeed there’s always the possibility that someone doesn’t realise a wheel chair won’t fit through a standard gangway until they try.
And also on the approach to Bath is way too late to do anything.
Chiltern 165
Member
I find the lack of care from the guard concerning- how do you not know about a disabled passenger onboard, or even more concerningly how is your route knowledge so bad that you don’t know where the train uses SDO.
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This is just staff doing malicious compliance so they only have to do as little as possible.
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